Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Adam · 07-20-2012, 03:41 PM

Daniel Boyarin in Church History in 2001
Justin Martyr Invents Judaism
showed the Council of Jamnia (c. 90CE) is irrelevant to the dating of gJohn, as the word "minim" refers of heretics who were enjoined to leave the synagogues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boyarin

New Testament scholar J. Louis Martyn, in an argument that once was (and still is, in certain quarters) very influential, used the alleged first-century "curse of the heretics" to explain the aposynagogos of the Fourth Gospel.(8) This suggestion has been thoroughly called into question in recent years by both Jewish and Christian scholars, beginning with Peter Schafer, Gunther Stemberger, and Reuven Kimelman. In 1977, Stemberger already pointed out that if there were a first-century curse of the minim it could hardly, in first-century Judaea, have had any Christians, let alone Gentile Christians, in mind, if only because there were so few Jewish Christians.

Boyarin goes on to show that the Pharisees co-opted Judaism at this time, and it was primarily the Sadduccees who were regarded as the minim, the heretics.

Duvduv · 07-22-2012, 05:16 AM

In fact there is no evidence at all from any traditional texts that the blessing added to the 18 benedictions referred at all to "Christians," but rather to the Saduccees and other assorted heretical sects. In two manuscripts found in the Cairo geniza the term "notzrim" is ADDED into that blessing against the minim. But there is no information as to the origin of these two manuscripts. It is unusual that the manuscript would include the word notzrim in reference to non-Jews, and if they were Jewish heretics they would be included within the overall term minim. There is no known prayer book tradition that includes "notzrim" in the prayer.

outhouse · 07-24-2012, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam

Daniel Boyarin in Church History in 2001
Justin Martyr Invents Judaism
showed the Council of Jamnia (c. 90CE) is irrelevant to the dating of gJohn, as the word "minim" refers of heretics who were enjoined to leave the synagogues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boyarin

New Testament scholar J. Louis Martyn, in an argument that once was (and still is, in certain quarters) very influential, used the alleged first-century "curse of the heretics" to explain the aposynagogos of the Fourth Gospel.(8) This suggestion has been thoroughly called into question in recent years by both Jewish and Christian scholars, beginning with Peter Schafer, Gunther Stemberger, and Reuven Kimelman. In 1977, Stemberger already pointed out that if there were a first-century curse of the minim it could hardly, in first-century Judaea, have had any Christians, let alone Gentile Christians, in mind, if only because there were so few Jewish Christians.

Boyarin goes on to show that the Pharisees co-opted Judaism at this time, and it was primarily the Sadduccees who were regarded as the minim, the heretics.

yet this alone has nothing to do with accurately dating the text. Its a small piece of the puzzle and only with imagination can it carry any weight.

Adam · 07-24-2012, 11:31 PM

That's what I said. We agree for once.

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07-22-2012, 05:16 AM	#2
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	In fact there is no evidence at all from any traditional texts that the blessing added to the 18 benedictions referred at all to "Christians," but rather to the Saduccees and other assorted heretical sects. In two manuscripts found in the Cairo geniza the term "notzrim" is ADDED into that blessing against the minim. But there is no information as to the origin of these two manuscripts. It is unusual that the manuscript would include the word notzrim in reference to non-Jews, and if they were Jewish heretics they would be included within the overall term minim. There is no known prayer book tradition that includes "notzrim" in the prayer.

07-24-2012, 11:31 PM	#4
Adam Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Dixon CA Posts: 1,150	That's what I said. We agree for once.

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