Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Solitary Man · 12-06-2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

I don't think this is considered controversial by most Christians. The standard explanation given is that at that moment Christ was bearing our sins and therefore had to be forsaken by the father.

I'm not saying you're wrong, squiz, but that's the first time I've heard such an explanation. The Christians I have heard talking about it always claim that it was "Jesus' moment of doubt", which merely proves he was human.

When I was a Christian, I always heard squiz's interpretation. I never heard yours.

Toto · 12-06-2007, 06:11 PM

I am not eager to delve into the physiology of crucifixion, but I believe that it involves a sort of suffocation. It seems unlikely that anyone being crucified would be able to speak at all.

Not for the squeamish

Quote:

The weight of a body hanging by the arms impaired the proper
functioning of the lungs. The victim could inhale, but not exhale.
If the legs were nailed straight, death would have occurred within
minutes. By leaving the legs bent, the victim could use his feet as a
fulcrum, pushing upward on the nail (or nails) when exhalation was
required. This meant the greatest agony of crucifixion occurred from
the almost constant sensation of suffocation. To speak, as Christ did
from His cross, took an enormous toll because it required the victim
to push up against the nails in his feet and hold that position for as
long as it took to complete the words.

Eventually, even the hardest victim would begin to suffer from muscle
cramps and progressive weakness. When he could no longer push up to
exhale, he would be forced to sag a final agonizing time. If the
soldiers on duty wanted to hasten death, as in the case of the thieves
executed with Jesus, they would break the legs so the condemned could
no longer push up to empty his lungs. Indeed, breaking the legs of a
victim at the beginning of the execution was a severe mercy, for it
spared the condemned long hours of intense agony.

It seems highly unlikely that anyone being crucified said anything at all.

Toto · 12-06-2007, 08:36 PM

BlackWodin's digression has been split off here.

Joan of Bark · 12-06-2007, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

I'm not saying you're wrong, squiz, but that's the first time I've heard such an explanation. The Christians I have heard talking about it always claim that it was "Jesus' moment of doubt", which merely proves he was human.

When I was a Christian, I always heard squiz's interpretation. I never heard yours.

Maybe the standard response is different in mainland Europe (I grew up in England and Canada).

Eldarion Lathria · 12-06-2007, 09:07 PM

According to John Allegro Jesus said "Eloi, Eloi, limash-baganta." "My god, my god, oh sacred mushroom."

Had he been one of my Basque ancestors, he would have sung something like "Glorious it is to die for freedom. Beware Roman scum, our kinsmen are waiting. In the mountains and forests to strike you from secret. Free shall be the land of Euskal Herria. "

Toto, people being crucified often lingered for days. The crucifixion wasn't intended to kill them, exposure, thirst and lingering pain were meant to do them in. People often remained conscious and verbal for days.

Eldarion Lathria

juergen · 12-06-2007, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

I'm not saying you're wrong, squiz, but that's the first time I've heard such an explanation. The Christians I have heard talking about it always claim that it was "Jesus' moment of doubt", which merely proves he was human.

When I was a Christian, I always heard squiz's interpretation. I never heard yours.

Me three.

Malachi151 · 12-07-2007, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

No, he copied it from the Septuagint, in Greek. The Aramaic reading that he gives is his own translation of the Greek.

So, Mark knew Aramaic, eh? And Matthew knew enough Hebrew to be able to correct eloi to eli?

Furthermore, tell me about these Greek passages:

ὁ θεος ὁ θεος μου προσχες μοι ινα τι εγκατελιπες με (μακρα απο της σωτηριας μου οἱ λογοι των παραπτωματων μου)

ὁ θεος μου ὁ θεος μου εις τι εγκατελιπες με

Why did Mark add the second μου and leave off the προσχες μοι ινα substituting it for εις?

Still, there's not a direct copy.

Quote:

"That's a stupid answer."

How about a little evidence to back up your baseless assertions?

#1) Matthew is irrelevant.

#2) I can't think of any instances where what is written in the Gospel of Mark exactly matches any known version of the "Old Testament" scritpures, even in cases where he was overtly quoting the scriptures.

Here is the modern translation of the Psalms from the Septuagint:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/editi...salms-nets.pdf

Line 1 of Psalm 22 (21) in the Septuagint reads: "My God, my God, attend to me; why did you forsake me?"

The possible explanations are many.

A) The copy of the scriptures that he was using was slightly different from known copies that we have today.

B) The author intentionality changed things up a bit.

C) Changes were made (inadvertently) by copyists to the copy that the author originally wrote.

D) The author's Greek language skills were bad.

E) The author had dyslexia.

F) The author worked from memory.

etc...

Still, there are enough similarities to make it clear that one text is based on the other regardless.

None of the lines that are obviously inspired by Psalm 22 are exact word-for-word copies of the lines in the Septuagint, so why one would expect this line to be an exact copy I have no idea.

GPLindsey · 12-07-2007, 03:12 AM

My understanding is that Jesus whispered:

"douchebagsayswhat"

And the crowd said, "What?"

And he repeated:

"douchebagsayswhat"

And the crowd strained their ears and said with more urgency: "What??"

And this back and forth went on for about three hours, and then he gave up the ghost. The end.

Dogfish · 12-07-2007, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Quote:

Originally Posted by squiz

I don't think this is considered controversial by most Christians. The standard explanation given is that at that moment Christ was bearing our sins and therefore had to be forsaken by the father.

I'm not saying you're wrong, squiz, but that's the first time I've heard such an explanation. The Christians I have heard talking about it always claim that it was "Jesus' moment of doubt", which merely proves he was human.

I agree. I was raised RC and we were always to that this line, and the Gethsemane stuff was proof he was "human".

Dogfish · 12-07-2007, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPLindsey

My understanding is that Jesus whispered:

"douchebagsayswhat"

And the crowd said, "What?"

And he repeated:

"douchebagsayswhat"

And the crowd strained their ears and said with more urgency: "What??"

And this back and forth went on for about three hours, and then he gave up the ghost. The end.

:rolling:

Maybe that explains why my faith was so "fleet-ing".

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

12-06-2007, 08:36 PM	#33
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	BlackWodin's digression has been split off here.

12-06-2007, 09:07 PM	#35
Eldarion Lathria Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Atlantis Posts: 2,449	According to John Allegro Jesus said "Eloi, Eloi, limash-baganta." "My god, my god, oh sacred mushroom." Had he been one of my Basque ancestors, he would have sung something like "Glorious it is to die for freedom. Beware Roman scum, our kinsmen are waiting. In the mountains and forests to strike you from secret. Free shall be the land of Euskal Herria. " Toto, people being crucified often lingered for days. The crucifixion wasn't intended to kill them, exposure, thirst and lingering pain were meant to do them in. People often remained conscious and verbal for days. Eldarion Lathria

12-07-2007, 03:12 AM	#38
GPLindsey Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 221	My understanding is that Jesus whispered: "douchebagsayswhat" And the crowd said, "What?" And he repeated: "douchebagsayswhat" And the crowd strained their ears and said with more urgency: "What??" And this back and forth went on for about three hours, and then he gave up the ghost. The end.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.