jgibson000

He doesn't show any knowledge of the "anti Jewish" polemic in the DSS either. Should we then conclude from this that the DSS were written after Josephus died?

And are the "slurs" in the NT really "anti Jewish/anti-semitic", let alone against "the Jews"? Or are they more limited in scope vis a vis their targets, not to mention of cut from the same cloth as are the charges of gross "Jewish" unfaithfulness and that we see in, say, Jeremiah or Amos or in the intramural volleys of vitriol thrown by Jewish groups and proto Rabbinic schools against other Jewish groups and proto Rabbinic schools in the first century?

If this is the best that Leidner can offer to prove his claim, both his logic and his scholarship is very sloppy.

JG

Toto

I was not aware of anti-Jewish polemic in the DSS. Would you like to provide a reference? Certainly Josephus did not know something called the "Dead Sea Scrolls."

I know that there are well-meaning people who try to read the NT in a way that reinterprets the anti-Jewish passages as merely accusations of Jewish unfaithfulness to their own tradition, or some such. I would not try to discourage that interpretation in anyone who feels the need to honor the gospels. But you have to admit that a lot of Christians and others have read the gospels as anti-Semitic, and it is quite easy to find passages such as 1Thess 2,14-16

If you are going to attack Leidner, please read him in the original, rather than relying on my brief and possibly incomplete summary.

(Previous threads on Leider here and some others.

yalla

OK thank you for the responses, Toto and JG.
Obviously I would not try to make a case for Josephus being written before the DSS.

But with the gospels we have been told, per conventional wisdom, 3 things:
1. They were written before the death of Josephus in the late 90s, 98ce I believe [?] and thus it is theoretically possible for him to have read or heard of them second hand at least. Some date all of the Pauline material, gospels and Acts prior to Josephus' death.
Possible.

2. That Christians were active in various places, presumably some of them at least with access to one or more of those gospels, throughout the empire.

Including Rome where, according to Paul's Romans and alleged 1 "Clement" epistle, gospel material was known, at least in some degree. "Clement" being the 3rd or 4th or something similar in the line of prominent Roman Christians and operating as a Christian and writing [whoever wrote the epistle] presumably from Rome within [just] the lifetime of Josephus.

That is, contemporary to Josephus living and writing in the same place with probably excellent access, by virtue of his position as an imperial protege, to whatever Christian material and information was around.

3. That the final split between Christianity and Judaism had yet to occur, usually dated to the latter part of the 1c or even later, so that as a Jew Josephus was still possibly/probably in contact with those circles that included people familiar with or even using one or more of the gospels if they existed as per conventional dating.

Can he be expected, by virtue of proximity and interest, to be aware of the gospels materials? As literary works. As rumour.
After all its only a few years since Paul was allegedly in Rome, Nero burnt the Christians, "Chrestus'' the riotous Jew operated a few decades prior, there is reputed to be a thriving Christian community, persecution is yet to occur, some penetration of the imperial household by Christians has been alleged and there is possibly/probably still confusion between the categories of Christian and Jew.
It seems to me to be likely that Josephus would be intersted in and have the resources to know about the gospels if they were circulating as claimed.
[I'm presuming multiple copies are around, enough copies of "Mark" for both "Matthew" and "Luke" to independently come in contact with it. And that's ignoring alleged Q itself in more than 1 version so as to be independently available to both the later gospel writers and even the first according to some. Whatever form, if any, it is in.]
In fact I would expect anything that was related to Judea and Judaism, including a new religion emanating from Jerusalem, to be referred to Josephus as the "go to" resident Jewish expert for things Jewish as far as the Roman authorities, with their assorted ears to the ground, were concerned. Dinner table conversation ["Hey Joe who are these Christ worshippers your Jews are on about?"]
Just a series of thoughts.
cheers
yalla

Malachi151

All good points, but what if Christianity didn't start in Judea, but rather in Rome?

yalla

All the more likely Josephus knew about it?

Why do you suggest Rome?

jgibson000

How much of the DSS have you actually read?

As to a reference, there's Pesher Nahum (4QpNah = 4Q169), not to mention the War Scroll.

Then from the Pharisaic perspective, how about Psalms of Solomon?

Nor does he know the works of Philo. So I guess Philo also wrote after Josephus died.

How kind of you. But are you actually claiming that the only reason that scholars who maintain that the Christian "slurs" against Jews that you claim can be found in the NT are part of traditional Jewish intramural polemic, is not because they have been persuaded by evidence, but because that they feel bound to "honour" the gospels? Can you provide some citations of authors who discuss the allegedly anti-semitic passages in the Gospels that might indicate your claim has some merit?

And may I ask about how much work you have done in Intertestamental and Rabbinic literature?

And this proves what? A lot of people have read Revelation as a countdown tract. Argumentum ad populum.

Haven't you argued that that passage is an interpolation? Are you now saying that it was an original part of 1 Thess?

In any case, is it worse than anything that is in Pesher Nahum or the War Scroll?

And do these passages that you refer to (but do not name) employ the same sort of anti-Jewish language or level the same charges against Jews that we find in Greco-Roman (Gentile) polemics/propaganda against Jews and Judaism (For these, see Greek and Latin Authors on Jews and Judaism by Menahem Stern)?

I'd be grateful to see your comparative analysis.

JG

yalla

Networks.
Sometimes it's not what you know but who you know.

As an offshoot of my thought[s] about Josephus and the gospels I wondered if he, Josephus, knew of Philo.
Seems he did.

From Early Jewish Writings website

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/philo.html

Citing James C VanderKam:
"Josephus considered him prominent in every way and skilled in philosophy." (An Introduction to Early Judaism, p. 138)"

Which got me on to a very interesting fellow.

Tiberius Julius Alexander [junior].
- son of the governor of the Alexandrian Jews who was also guardian of Antonia the mother of Claudius who was the bloke who expelled the Roman Jews who were making pests of themselves "at the instigation of Chrestus".
-nephew of Philo.
-father-in-law of Herod Agrippa the bloke who allegedly plays a role in gospel
stories.
-brother to the governor of the Alex. Jews, successor to their dad.
Procurator of Judea 46-48ce, according to Josephus, at the time Paul was allegedly active in Jerusalem.
Prefect of Egypt, appointed by Nero, the bloke who allegedly burned the Christians.
Crucifier of 3 of the mates of Josephus, 2 of whom died but one did not after Josephus requested TJA they be taken down. [I'm not certain about this titbit.]
General of the Roman army at the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. Now that is particularly interesting.
Cos, according to Josephus, Josephus was there and highly involved as well and thus it would seem to be almost certain that he knew TJA well. [Plus the crucifixion story]
So Josephus probably knew someone fairly closely who was privy, perhaps, possibly, maybe, to information regarding:
Pilate, one of his predecessors
Chrestus, via his dad and Antonia
Nero burning Christians
Whatever herod knew re John the Baptist, Paul, Jesus et al.
What was going on in Judea [and Alexandria]. Such as the killing of Stephen, the killing of James, whatever Paul was doing and so on.

A good source of information as to those places were Christians were active.
Known to Josephus.
I reckon this strengthen the possibility that Josephus could have been aware of Christianity and the gospels if these were around as they are reputed to have been.
I'd better check that Josephus knew of Philo hey.
cheers
yalla

yalla

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/t...hus/ant18.html

"But Philo, the principal of the Jewish embassage, a man eminent on all accounts, brother to Alexander the alabarch, (30) and one not unskillful in philosophy, was ready to betake himself to make his defense against those accusations; but Caius prohibited him, and bid him begone; he was also in such a rage, that it openly appeared he was about to do them some very great mischief. So Philo being thus affronted, went out, and said to those Jews who were about him, that they should be of good courage, since Caius's words indeed showed anger at them, but in reality had already set God against himself."
JA 18.8

Toto

I don't claim your level of expertise. Perhaps you could point to some specific passage that denigrates the Jews, all Jews, or claims that they are the children of Satan?

Apprently Josephus does mention Philo. From Peter Kirby's siteHow about Ludemann, The Unholy in Holy Scripture: The Dark Side of the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk)? I could go on, but that would get off topic for this thread.

As you have been told, this forum includes rank amateurs such as myself, who hope to learn from people like you.

There is language in the NT that looks anti-Semitic. There are centuries of Christian church history in which the literate chuch scholars used those passages as the basis of anti-Semitic teaching. Now in the post-Halocaust era there are Christians who want Jews to like them, and want to reinterpret those passages as something else. I wish them well.

It was probably an interpolation, but it was a very early interpolation made by Christians, and accepted by the early Christian church.

Mind coming up with an example?

Jeffrey: if you want to start a new thread on this topic, please be my guest. I think that there are some prior threads on this topic. But I would appreciate it if you would state your thesis and supply some discussion instead of just challenging everything others write.

jgibson000

Please note that my claim was not that Josephus had no knowledge of Philo. My claim was that Josephus did not know Philo's writings.

Your quote from Antiquities is hardly evidence against my claim.

At best, if this passage is not an interpolation, all that can legitimately be concluded from it is

(1) that Josephus knew of Philo, not his works, since there's no mention of Philo here as a writer; and

(2) since Philo is not mentioned in War, even though we might expect him and his embassy to Caligula to have been, given that Josephus speaks in the War of the events that he notes in the Antiquities caused and followed upon the embassy, Josephus only came to know of Philo late in his (Josephus') life.

Indeed, if this passage proves anything, it's just the opposite of what you (apparently) think it does.

Consider this:

Josephus tells us that the number of Jewish ambassadors from Alexandria to Caligula was three, with Philo at their head. But Philo himself, in his personal account of the embassy, says that there were no fewer than five such ambassadors.

Would Josephus have contradicted the account of the major player in, and an eyewitness to, the event he describes had he read Philo?

My money, and (to my knowledge) that of Josephan scholars, is with Whiston when he says

"... that he [Josephus] ever did [i.e., ever read Philo], does not appear."

JG