mountainman

Apollonius of Tyana is mentioned twice in the Res Gestae
by Ammianus Marcellinus, the minor reference occurring in
a geographical digression which included Tyana.

The major reference is located in a section related to
theological matters, and has been presented in full
context below ...

LOEB (Rolfe)
Volume II, p.167

Ammianus Marcellinus
BOOK XXI
14. Omens of the death of Constantius Augustus

1. In this welter of adverse event Constantius'
fortune, already wavering and at a standstill,
showed clearly the signs almost as plain as words,
that a crisis in his life was at hand. For at night he
was alarmed by apparitions, and when he was not
yet wholly sunk into sleep, the ghost of his father
seemed to hold out to him a fair child, and when he
took it and set it in his lap, it shook from him the
ball which he had held in his right hand and threw it
to a great distance. And this foretold a change in
the state, although the seers gave reassuring answers.

2. After that he admitted to his more intimate
attendants that, as though forsaken, he ceased to see
a kind of secret something which he used to think
occassionally appeared to him, though somewhat dimly;
and it was supposed that a sort of guardian spirit,
assigned to protect his life, had deserted him, since he
was destined quickly to leave this world.

3. For the theologians maintain that there are associated
with all men at their birth, but without interference with
the established course of destiny, certain divinities
of that sort, as directors of their conduct; but they
have been seen by only a very few, whom their
manifold merits have raised to eminence.

4. And this oracles and writers of distinction have shown;
among the latter is also the comic poet Menander,
in whom we read these two searii:

"A daemon is assigned to every man
At birth, to be the leader of his life".

5. Likewise from the immortal poems of Homer
we are given to understand that it was not the gods
of heaven that spoke with brave men, and stood by
them or aided them as they fought. bu that guardians
spirits attended them; and through reliance upon
their special support, it is said, that Pythagoras,
Socrates, and Numa Pompilius became famous; also
the earlier Scipio, and (as some believe) Marius and
Octavianus, who first had the title of Augustus
conferred upon him, and Hermes Trismegistus,
Apollonius of Tyana, and Plotinus, who ventured to
discourse on this mystic theme, and to present
a profound discussion on the question by what
elements these spirits are linked with men's souls,
and taking them to their bosoms, as it were,
protect them (as long as possible) and give them
higher instruction, if they perceive that they are
pure and kept from the pollution of sin through
association with an immaculate body.

Clearly the author Ammianus Marcellinus associates
the historical figure of Apollonius of Tyana with a
host of others in the Hellenic/Pythagorean cultural
histriography known to the fourth century.

The history of that part of antiquity (0-300 CE)
cannot be known without resolving the reasons
and the methods by which the memory of this
Apollonius of Tyana was calumnified (by Eusebius?),
and in succeeding generations, his books, letters,
statues and biographies destroyed, by the new
ROMAN religious order promoted by Constantine,
irrespective (in this instance) of its original inception
date.



Pete Brown
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essene...of%20Tyana.htm

mountainman

THEOSOPHY, Vol. 24, No. 9, July, 1936
APOLLONIUS OF TYANA
http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/apollonius.html

Soul Invictus

I've heard people say that Jesus was actually the figure Apollonius of Tyana and I've heard that he was Yeshua ben Pandera. I wonder how what evidence exists that shows that either of them was a real person. I'm not familiar at all with your sources - can you tell a bit about it?

mountainman

Hi Sol Invictus,


I have collected a bibliography for Apollonius here:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essene...of%20Tyana.htm

Apart from this, I have gathered together various resources here"
http://www.mountainman.com.au/apollonius_of_tyana.htm
I have not yet included the Ammianus reference above. DOnt
have any great information concerning Yeshua ben Pandera, sorry.


The primary reference would have to be Philostratus, in his
"Life of Apollonius" published circa 220 CE, during the Second
Sophistic period.

You then have the Eusebian treatise AGAINST Apollonius
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eu...es_preface.htm
written in the fourth century, serindipitously occassioned by Hierocles
comparison between Apollonius and JC (which of course does not survive).

You then have a significant listing of controversy in the
following centuries (down to this very day) concerning the
history and/or the memory of Apollonius. There are a number
of articles concerning who mentions Apollonius (inside and outside
the church), and the events which follow the attempted
republication of "The Life of Apollonius" instigated by the church.

It is worthy to note that all publications of "The Life" prior to
last century (AFAIK) were prefaced with the original Eusebian
Treatise AGAINST Apollonius. so as to "dispense the antidote
with the poison to follow".

In short, as he was told by the Oracle of Delphi, his memory
was to be calumnified, and the world would not know his works,
which according to the above bibliography, were substantial,
widely read and known to the period of the 2nd & 3rd centuries,
before they were again publicised by Philostratus (sponsored by
Julia Domna).

The central role played by Eusebius in the gathering of the scanty
records available of the past to fabricate an acceptably "dignified"
history of christianity for the 300 years prior to his actual writing
the literature known as "Historia Ecclesistica", needs to be set
alongside his agenda to dismiss the power of Apollonius.

In essence, if we are to believe Philostratus, Apollonius was a
master neo-pythagorean, and travelling sage, and represented
an important link in the "tribe of pythagoreans" in the first three
centuries leading to Ammonius Saccas, Plotinus, and Iamblicus, et al.

It was this ancient "Hellenic religious order" that Constantine
actively plundered and destroyed, and had its philosphers
executed, as documented here:
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_060.htm

Therefore, my thesis is that JC is a fiction added in the fourth century,
whereas Apollonius was an historical pythagorean sage, whose memory
was consigned for deletion by the first christians in the same century.

Best wishes,



Pete Brown
AUTHORS of ANTIQUITY
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_029.htm

wordy

The fact that Theosophy writes about it gives me sceptical feelings. Are not they known for speculative inventive reading?

Do we have sources of APOLLONIUS OF TYANA not linked to religious sects like theosophy? Takethis text Am I wrong in my gut feeling that the Gnostics are the great inspiration of Theosophy. The Gnostics wrote texts that challenged what became christian orthodoxy. Is it not likely that both groups "created" their stories in competition with each other. John epistles seems to be a christian debunking of gnostic views. Theosophic writers seems to seek out texts that rekindle that old competition. Theosophy as a modern version of gnostic views.

Why should we trust Apollonius of Tyana to have been a real historic person? Are there neutral references to him from people that are neither christian nor gnostic supporters?

I bet more on Barabbas to have been a real person and maybe the inspiration of the myth of jesus as a real person.

Christ as a spiritual concept could have been applied to Barabbas. Similar as the supposed historical person Saul who is told as Paul as the writer of letters of Paul. Maybe Paul is a myth too based on Saul who may have been for real but never turning into Paul. The writers and compilers could have ascribed this spiritually to happen to both Barabbas turned into the myth Jesus and Saul turned into the myth Paul.

mountainman

A number of Roman emperors are purported to have
mentioned his name, other writers and philosophers.
Works written by him are quoted by others, including
the foremost church historian Eusebius.

It is not a matter of trust IMO, but the accumulation
of many networks of probabilistic relational integrity
which together determine the "historicity" of any figure.

See this post:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=174300
comparitive historicity (Apollonius of Tyana c.f. Jesus of Nazareth)

If we were to use Richard Carrier's criteria for historicity
then I think an objective assessement would favour the
Pythagorean with a higher value.




Pete Brown

mountainman

"The Life of Apollonius of Tyana"
-- Philostratus circa 220 CE

Translation by F.C. Conybeare, published in 1912
in the Loeb Classical Library

The full text is now available on the net at this address:
http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius/life/va_00.html


FYI

wordy

Ok, I step back. He seems to have more that speaks for him than Jesus has.

Doesn't this imply that a hundred percent mythical person has a bigger chance to found a religion than a real living person.

Maybe Paul is the real source of christianity then.