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Old 12-14-2012, 06:40 PM   #1
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Default Carrier's article on Josephus is out

I just noticed that the newest issue of the Journal of Early Christian studies is out. Richard Carrier's article on the famous brother-passage in Josephus is in it. Here's the abstract:
Quote:
Analysis of the evidence from the works of Origen, Eusebius, and Hegesippus concludes that the reference to "Christ" in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200 is probably an accidental interpolation or scribal emendation and that the passage was never originally about Christ or Christians. It referred not to James the brother of Jesus Christ, but probably to James the brother of the Jewish high priest Jesus ben Damneus.
Have fun if you have access to it! :Cheeky:
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:37 AM   #2
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How does one get access to it? They don't even have an outrageously priced option for downloading a single article or issue.
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Old 12-15-2012, 07:26 AM   #3
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Tenorikuma, I'll get access to this after a year through the university of Iceland :P
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:32 AM   #4
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Mythicist publishing in a peer reviewed journal?

Carrier's blog

Why Evolution is true blog: Richard Carrier takes the Christ out of Christmas
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:15 PM   #5
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Thanks, Toto, for that first link,
And to maryhelena for the further link to Carrier's citation of Gary Goldberg.

(I may not be the first to come up with the idea that the Walk to Emmaus was an eyewitness account. I came up with the idea well before Goldberg published in 1995, but I don't know if I put out in print in even High-IQ society journal. Here's a later time I put it out: http://megasociety.org/noesis/181.htm#Resurrection )

That eyewitness testimony in Luke 24 traces back to Cleopas and Simon has also been argued as a source for the Testimonium Flavinium in Josephus. Gary Goldberg in The Coincidences of the Emmaus Narrative of Luke and the Testimonium of Josephus, published in 1995 in The Journal for the Study of Pseudepigrapha, p. 59-77 showed the similarities in Greek in parallel columns. He argued against the similarity arising from later copying from one into the other. Goldberg concluded that as Bishop of Jerusalem after 62 CE Simon had passed on to Josephus the source which his father had written. Josephus took the easy road of incorporating this as his history about Jesus rather than researching other information. Antiquities 18.3.3:63-64 contains items that are clearly Josephus’s redacting or later forgery, when compared with Luke 24:18-21, 25-27. Josephus even lapses uncharacteristically into the first person with “our leaders”, like he is copying slavishly.

Other than that, Josephus is much terser than Luke, both less interested in the details or choosing to suppress the supernatural. Goldberg’s case is much enhanced by his further comparisons with the Arabic translation of Josephus which often agrees with Luke against the Greek text of Josephus. “In regard to these four points, then, the Arabic Testimonium is actually closer to Luke than it is to the Greek Testimonium.” Then Goldberg lists several others as well.

“Since Luke probably drew the Emmaus Narrative from an existing tradition, its outline suggests the possibility that Josephus, if he was indeed the author of the Testimonium, drew his narrative from a similar or even identical source.” Goldberg focuses on the strange expression , “third had day” in Luke with “third this day had” in Josephus. “The construction was originally written by a Christian, but of the first century, and it was incorporated into the Testimonium by Josephus himself.”

Goldberg’s proposed text of the Testimonium Flavinium:
“About this time there was Jesus, a wise man. He was a performer of unusual deeds and a teacher who had heard truth with pleasure and had won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to death, those of us who had first come to love him did not cease. They reported he appeared to them spending a third day alive again, and accordingly, that he was perhaps the Messiah, for the prophets of God had prophesied these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the sect of Christians, so called after him, has not disappeared to this day.”

http://www.josephus.org/GoldbergJosephusLuke1995.pdf (for all the above. I could not give page numbers because the free access runs 1 to 15 instead of 59 to 77)
Everything that seems unique to the Walk to Emmaus seems gone, but condensed into generalities. It does not provide much support for the accuracy of Luke 24, but it is strong evidence for HJ. It is also support for Josephus having copied from Acts (or its precursor source) rather than the reverse. Josephus did have access to information from Christians. On the other hand this does reduce the value of Josephus as an independent witness to Jesus.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Goldberg’s proposed text of the Testimonium Flavinium: [snip]
Here is my proposed text of the TF:

"…"

Incidentally, I have a copy of Carrier's new article if anyone is curious about it. I'm about halfway through it so far.
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Old 12-29-2012, 02:29 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenorikuma View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Goldberg’s proposed text of the Testimonium Flavinium: [snip]
Here is my proposed text of the TF:

"…"

Incidentally, I have a copy of Carrier's new article if anyone is curious about it. I'm about halfway through it so far.
Thanks, Tenorikuma!


Quote:

Richard Carrier: We can no longer proceed with confidence
that Josephus referred to Christians here. The significance of this
finding is manifold, but principally it removes this passage from the body
of reliable evidence for the fate of Jesus’ family, the treatment of Christians
in the first century, or Josephus’s attitude toward or knowledge of Christians.
Likewise, future commentaries on the relevant texts of Origen and
Josephus must take this finding into account, as must any treatments of
the evidence for the historical Jesus. Most pressingly, all reference works
that treat “James the brother of Jesus” must be emended to reflect this
finding, particularly as this passage is the only evidence by which a date
for this James’ death has been derived.
Now that's telling them.....it will be interesting to watch any follow up from Josephan scholars or JC historicists....
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:05 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hjalti View Post
I just noticed that the newest issue of the Journal of Early Christian studies is out. Richard Carrier's article on the famous brother-passage in Josephus is in it. :
As is and accessible most of the book review of Roger Pearse's
Eusebius of Caesarea, Gospel Problems and Solutions Quaestiones ad Stephanum et Marinum (review by Claudio Zamagni )
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&typ...4.zamagni.html
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