gregor

Were the dead prophets who climbed from their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem upon Jesus' death soulless shells? Did their souls return from heaven to their bodies for the afternoon stroll?

As I indicated, at least some churches are currently trying to square the disparate thoughts of immediacy and "end of time" by saying that it is a matter of perspective. For a dead body/resting soul, there is no "time," so it appears immediate for the dead, although it may appear to take time to those still living.

capnkirk

Gary,

Yes, modern man is no longer satisfied with the definitions provided for archaic man, and has had to reinterpret scripture to make it intellectually inoffensive enough to be accepted. I say that modern atheists have had to take that process a step farther in order to accomplish the same acceptability.

The modern atheist looks at the 'lesson plan', accepts the wisdom of most of the life rules (how to treat others, what is justice, what is compassion, etc.), then throws out the rest as "packaging" materials. He denies the efficacy of prayer, the concept of worship, and the expectation there will be any justice in this reality that we don't create ourselves. Then he goes through life trying to live up to his ideals, just like a theist does.

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capnkirk

Good point...and it sets up the argument that follows.

I agree that they have tried. While that might reconcile the now several thousand year wait for resurrection, the clear implication is that no one has made it to heaven yet...since they're all still waiting. That is why the 'prederist' argument was formulated. It attempts to moot the conflict by declaring that the eschaton has already happened.

While these arguments seem to solve the conflict when viewed exclusively from the perspective of living/dead mortals, it completely falls apart when you change the perspective to souls currently residing in heaven (eternally) now being "given" new bodies so as to continue eternally with an immortal body, as described in my previous post (above).

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Layman

He wasn't having it both ways. Although we will eternally be with God, heaven and earth will be remade into something new. In that something new we will have new bodies. Christians that is, not you unbelievers.

capnkirk

I was only about 13 when, while listening to the minister tout the wonders of heaven, I realized that I really didn't have any interest in going. That was the beginning of the end of my belief in God, Jesus, et al.

That bit of theistic doublespeak (subtly changing "with god" for "heaven") certainly hasn't done anything to rekindle my interest in heaven...even if by chance you are right.

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Layman

There is no doubletalk. Though some modern Christians may think "heaven" is the ultimate goal, Christian theology for 2000 years has recognized its only a termporary abode. God will remake heaven and earth at the end of time.

If you are going to prove some sort of conflict between the belief in a soul that survives death and the resurrection of the body, please do so specifically. With references from Paul would be preferable since he is the one you accuse of contracitory opinions.

It seems that neither in the abstract or in Paul's practice is their a conflict between the soul surviving death and a resurrection of the body.

capnkirk

Much earlier in this thread, Judge and I went through several quotes from Paul's letters. Go back and read through them if you wish.

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Layman

Earlier you didn't even think Paul believed in an eternal soul. Now you claim to have laid out the scriptures that proved it?

This vague response is no response at all.

capnkirk

layman,

In my OP I posed this question: "All through Paul's letters, he speaks of the resurrection of the dead at the end of history. I can find no NT reference to the contemporary concept that people's souls go directly into some form of afterlife immediately after death. Though I can readily speculate the mythmaking process that "could" have led to this novel interpretation, I haven't read anything that would tell me where along the way this reinterpretation took place."

That places the burden of proof on you, not on me. I have not laid out scriptures to prove anything. Judge did...and I responded, that is all.

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Steven Carr

The resurrected (sorry, resuscitated) saints in Matthew must also have had new bodies, unless 'Dawn of the Dead' is actually a hard-hitting documentary.

Presumably they had already gone to be with Christ, and must have been a little upset to get back their natural bodies, and go through all the trauma of dying again (or possibly even backsliding and losing the place in Heaven they already had has)