Gamera

That was one of Abrams' many interesting points, yes. He's a friend of mine by the way, and a heck of a scholar. He's reading of Plato's Phaedra in the book is groundbreaking.

Gamera

Just to continue on this theme. the symbolic use of place is something we take for granted nowadays, because we are the heirs of a long symbolic tradition, one that resulted in the rise of exegetical thought, which in the medaeval period spilled over into an epistomology of nonbiblical texts and the world in general.

But I'm not aware of the exegetical method verifiably existing before Philo and Paul, where it was in its infancy and not full blown. There is an assumption the Judaism was exegetical in nature before then, but I"m not aware of any textual evidence of that.

My point is, query if your claim isn't anachronistic and that the symbolic use of place is something that simply didn't occur at the time the Hebrew and New Testament scriptures were being written.

jakejonesiv

Nope.

"and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified." Rev 11:8.

Jake

Gamera

Well, that kind of makes my point. Revelations is a late text. I thought you were claiming Paul was using cities symbolically. Paul's writings are usually situated many decades before Revelations.

Clivedurdle

Hang on, I thought I had quoted an example from 500BCE about maps, and why is rivers of zion not a symbolic use of place?

Surely we have been using symbols since someone painted some animals on a cave wall, or someone else dyed things with red ochre? Why would a specific culture not be thinking symbolically?

My argument is the converse, we have misinterpreted these texts as using a modern sense of geographical place. As I understand it people primarily thought symbolically about place and geography was in terms of along that river or coast or over that mountain pass for a few weeks.

Is not the garden of eden placed symbolically?

Gamera

Language itself is symbolic. But you're claiming something much more specific: a genre in which symboic use of places would be understandable to the reader. Genres have histories. Thus, full-blown allegorical literature is a late development -- it just doesn't exist until (as I recall) the early mediaeval period.

Similarly, I'm not aware of any narratives that use cities in a symbolic, allegorical way, in any Hebrew or Christian text until Revelations (and in fact it's hardly symbolic at all, since author flat out tells us what the cities mean).

I think if you're going to claim that Paul is using the place names symbolically as some kind of psychomachy in his life, you may be claming that Paul is the earliest example of such symbolic usage, which is quite a claim.

Clivedurdle

Some readers - not all? Gnostic initiates? Maybe Revelation is an example of someone supplying the answers - which they were not supposed to do!

The Gnostic Paul: Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Gamera

Well, the dating of gnostic christianity is nettlesome indeed. I think it's probably a later development (given the mss history we have), but who knows.

In any case, my point is if you have textual evidence of the symbolic use of place in Jewish, Roman or Greek literature, it would certainly make your claim about Paul more convincing. Otherwise, you're claiming that Paul's epistles are the first definitive instance of the symbolic use of place, which is as I say quite a claim.

Clivedurdle

I haven't made any claims! I thought I was putting forward some interesting factoids for discussion - might there be theological and symbolic (political? diplomatic?) reasons for choosing the places Paul wrote to?

As I see it, this is definetely worth exploring further - and I don't get this gnostic is post xian stuff all the time. The idea of inner secrets, initiation etc is quite clear in Zarathustra, Plato and all over the place. Why did everyone continually consult so and so for knowledge? What is that Roman story about books of knowledge, what were these Greeks doing spending time in volcanic fumes?

What was Paul doing studying the scriptures and believing god had told him the answer is 42?

jakejonesiv

No, it does not make your point "kind of" or otherwise. It is a direct refutation to your claim that Rev 11:8 prys open the door that you have prematurely deemed shut. I was working on a list of other possible symbolic uses of place names in the NT, but if you cannot agree with the most unambiguous example, what would be the use?

Jake Jones IV