Freethought & Rationalism Archive

EarlDoherty · 09-27-2012, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

'Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.' Heb 7:27 NIV

Which happened on this earth. According to the author of Hebrews:

'In these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.' Heb 1:2 NIV

So completely unable were Jews and pagan Romans to show that Jesus had not sacrificed himself, they were forced into admitting it; though changing the theology to a travesty of the biblical one. So, pagan priests to this day lift up bits of bread and say that they are God, and that somehow he is sacrificing himself again, for the billionth time. And if you don't run along to the pagan priest, you'll never get your sins forgiven, you'll never get to heaven. So there.

Why are these absurd men not hanged? Or at least deported. They are solid evidence that Jesus died on this earth.

Do you not read anything, either that the text says or what I say? Where does it say that 'speaking to us through a Son' is done on earth? Where is a single saying of Jesus in Hebrews come from anything other than scripture? If the Son is now speaking out of scripture (and acting out of scripture), how is that identifiable with anything on earth. The writer never once even implies that these words in scripture are a prophecy of anything happening on earth. You cannot just choose to make a text mean what you want it to mean. (Oh wait, that is of course exactly what you and countless others do in fact do.)

Earl Doherty

EarlDoherty · 09-27-2012, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Sure, we need visions, dreams....but those must be day dreams - dreams with eyes open to reality....

What does this sort of thing have to do with biblical exegesis?

Wouldn't you do better on a New Age discussion site, maryhelena?

Earl Doherty

maryhelena · 09-27-2012, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Sure, we need visions, dreams....but those must be day dreams - dreams with eyes open to reality....

What does this sort of thing have to do with biblical exegesis?

Wouldn't you do better on a New Age discussion site, maryhelena?

Earl Doherty

Nope - I'm sticking around here - and maybe - just maybe - one fine day Earl, you will get off your high horse and place your feet on terra-firma. Because that, Earl, is the only way forward in this JC debate - history. :wave:

EarlDoherty · 09-27-2012, 11:08 AM

I don't have time today to respond in detail to your rebuttal, Ted, but I will briefly argue one point. No, it would not have been natural to use the past tense in regard to describing what the high priests on earth do, because they still do it. One can come up with all sorts of analogies to demonstrate that.

You said that you made scrambled eggs using salt yesterday, but in this family we do not use salt in our scrambled eggs.

Past tense in referring to a specific event in the past, but a comparison with a general and continuing practice throughout history. Exactly as we have in 8:4. THAT is the more natural way of putting it, and perfectly fits the situation in and my interpretation of Hebrews. That past act is being compared with a general practice which nevertheless operated at that specific point in the past, which is what the writer is specifically talking about. But it is still natural and legitimate to do so by making his reference to the general practice, which belongs in the present tense.

Earl Doherty

maryhelena · 09-27-2012, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Ted, it's a very big jump from animal sacrifices to a human sacrifice i.e. JC on the cross. A very big step. Is not the theology supposed to be around the idea that it's the human sacrifice that has the ultimate value?

Once one rejects a human element in all of this and goes for a purely spiritual sacrifice - then one is leaving reality behind and opting for pure speculation. One has to retain some reality or one ends up only offering another vision. A battle of the visions.....

Ideas are great - but they need to have some connection to reality if they are going to be of any benefit, of any value to living in the here and now.

It's not all spiritual, it's not all pie in the sky.

Again, you have nothing to back this up except your own personal feelings about the topic. Give me a single passage in the record which makes this kind of point. In fact, in the very place we might expect elucidation on this claim of yours, in the letters of Ignatius, it is not there. Ignatius argues for an earthly occurrence of the crucifixion ("he was really crucified by Pontius Pilate"--and this is NOT anti-docetism, which you would know by reading my work, supported by at least one other scholar). It is on the basis of it happening IN FLESH that Ignatius claims it has meaning. He makes no mention of its meaning in the spirit world in parallel with the earthly event. No one else anywhere even intimates your concept. Paul also would have had more than one opportunity to bring up that idea (your "don't break the link between matter and spirit"). It is nowhere to be found.

Please stop advocating your own peculiar outlook on early Christian thought when you have absolutely nothing to back it up from the texts.

Earl Doherty

The texts? Crying out aloud Earl - those texts can be interpreted a hundred and one ways - that is a never ending merry-go-around. If that's your game - it sure will keep you busy until kingdom come - problem is it will probably make you dizzy in the process...:constern01:

maryhelena · 09-27-2012, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Ted, it's a very big jump from animal sacrifices to a human sacrifice i.e. JC on the cross. A very big step. Is not the theology supposed to be around the idea that it's the human sacrifice that has the ultimate value?

Once one rejects a human element in all of this and goes for a purely spiritual sacrifice - then one is leaving reality behind and opting for pure speculation. One has to retain some reality or one ends up only offering another vision. A battle of the visions.....

Ideas are great - but they need to have some connection to reality if they are going to be of any benefit, of any value to living in the here and now.

It's not all spiritual, it's not all pie in the sky.

Again, you have nothing to back this up except your own personal feelings about the topic. Give me a single passage in the record which makes this kind of point. In fact, in the very place we might expect elucidation on this claim of yours, in the letters of Ignatius, it is not there. Ignatius argues for an earthly occurrence of the crucifixion ("he was really crucified by Pontius Pilate"--and this is NOT anti-docetism, which you would know by reading my work, supported by at least one other scholar). It is on the basis of it happening IN FLESH that Ignatius claims it has meaning. He makes no mention of its meaning in the spirit world in parallel with the earthly event. No one else anywhere even intimates your concept. Paul also would have had more than one opportunity to bring up that idea (your "don't break the link between matter and spirit"). It is nowhere to be found.

Please stop advocating your own peculiar outlook on early Christian thought when you have absolutely nothing to back it up from the texts.

Earl Doherty

Earl - stop trying to tell me what I should do - you have been trying that for around 10 years now. Time to let it go...:angry:

EarlDoherty · 09-27-2012, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

What does this sort of thing have to do with biblical exegesis?

Wouldn't you do better on a New Age discussion site, maryhelena?

Earl Doherty

Nope - I'm sticking around here - and maybe - just maybe - one fine day Earl, you will get off your high horse and place your feet on terra-firma. Because that, Earl, is the only way forward in this JC debate - history. :wave:

I wouldn't mind, maryhelena, if you would get on a high horse of your own, provided it had some substance, as mine does. It would be better and more productive than having you float around in the clouds, placing nothing that you say onto the firm ground of the texts. What constitutes placing YOUR feet on "terra-firma"? Your philosophical ramblings which have no basis in any identifiable exegesis? You are in some New Age mindset, not in the thought world of the first century CE. Fine. Stick around if you like, but you're not throwing any light whatever on these debates.

Earl Doherty

TedM · 09-27-2012, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

I don't have time today to respond in detail to your rebuttal, Ted,

Ok. I've made a few changes in the last 40 minutes since posting. I'm done editing now.

PhilosopherJay · 09-27-2012, 11:50 AM

In Hebrews, we are talking about Joshua of Nun sitting at right hand of the throne of God, aren't we?

Quote:

New International Version (©1984)
Deuternomy 31:22 -So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.
23 - The LORD gave this command to Joshua son of Nun: "Be strong and courageous, for you will bring the Israelites into the land I promised them on oath, and I myself will be with you."

Joshua 1.
1 After the death of Moses the servant of the Lord, the Lord said to Joshua son of Nun, Moses’ aide: 2 “Moses my servant is dead. Now then, you and all these people, get ready to cross the Jordan River into the land I am about to give to them—to the Israelites. 3 I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. 4 Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates—all the Hittite country—to the Mediterranean Sea in the west. 5 No one will be able to stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. 6 Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their ancestors to give them.

7 “Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. 8 Keep this Book of the Law always on your lips; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.”

10 So Joshua ordered the officers of the people: 11 “Go through the camp and tell the people, ‘Get your provisions ready. Three days from now you will cross the Jordan here to go in and take possession of the land the Lord your God is giving you for your own.’”...

16 Then they answered Joshua, “Whatever you have commanded us we will do, and wherever you send us we will go. 17 Just as we fully obeyed Moses, so we will obey you. Only may the Lord your God be with you as he was with Moses. 18 Whoever rebels against your word and does not obey it, whatever you may command them, will be put to death. Only be strong and courageous!”

Joshua of Nun offered himself as a strong and courageous leader. he fulfilled God's oath to give the land to the people in three days.

Quote:

5 Joshua told the people, “Consecrate yourselves, for tomorrow the Lord will do amazing things among you.”

6 Joshua said to the priests, “Take up the ark of the covenant and pass on ahead of the people.” So they took it up and went ahead of them.

7 And the Lord said to Joshua, “Today I will begin to exalt you in the eyes of all Israel, so they may know that I am with you as I was with Moses. 8 Tell the priests who carry the ark of the covenant: ‘When you reach the edge of the Jordan’s waters, go and stand in the river.’”

9 Joshua said to the Israelites, “Come here and listen to the words of the Lord your God. 10 This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites. 11 See, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth will go into the Jordan ahead of you. 12 Now then, choose twelve men from the tribes of Israel, one from each tribe. 13 And as soon as the priests who carry the ark of the Lord—the Lord of all the earth—set foot in the Jordan, its waters flowing downstream will be cut off and stand up in a heap.

Joshua the intermediary with God for the people of Israel.

Quote:

13 About forty thousand armed for battle crossed over before the Lord to the plains of Jericho for war.

14 That day the Lord exalted Joshua in the sight of all Israel; and they stood in awe of him all the days of his life, just as they had stood in awe of Moses.

15 Then the Lord said to Joshua, 16 “Command the priests carrying the ark of the covenant law to come up out of the Jordan.”

17 So Joshua commanded the priests, “Come up out of the Jordan.”

Yes, that day "the Lord exalted Joshua."

Quote:

6:26 At that time Joshua pronounced this solemn oath: “Cursed before the Lord is the one who undertakes to rebuild this city, Jericho:

“At the cost of his firstborn son
he will lay its foundations;
at the cost of his youngest
he will set up its gates.”

27 So the Lord was with Joshua, and his fame spread throughout the land.

Joshua's oath.

Quote:

2 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[b] its enemies,

as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!

Joshua intervenes with the Lord on Israel's behalf

Quote:

19 Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.”

21 But the people said to Joshua, “No! We will serve the Lord.”

22 Then Joshua said, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.”

“Yes, we are witnesses,” they replied.

23 “Now then,” said Joshua, “throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.”

24 And the people said to Joshua, “We will serve the Lord our God and obey him.”

25 On that day Joshua made a covenant for the people, and there at Shechem he reaffirmed for them decrees and laws. 26 And Joshua recorded these things in the Book of the Law of God. Then he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak near the holy place of the Lord.

27 “See!” he said to all the people. “This stone will be a witness against us. It has heard all the words the Lord has said to us. It will be a witness against you if you are untrue to your God.”

Joshua makes the New Covenant between Yahweh and the people of Israel.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

sotto voce · 09-27-2012, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarlDoherty

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

'Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.' Heb 7:27 NIV

Which happened on this earth. According to the author of Hebrews:

'In these last days he has spoken to us by his Son.' Heb 1:2 NIV

So completely unable were Jews and pagan Romans to show that Jesus had not sacrificed himself, they were forced into admitting it; though changing the theology to a travesty of the biblical one. So, pagan priests to this day lift up bits of bread and say that they are God, and that somehow he is sacrificing himself again, for the billionth time. And if you don't run along to the pagan priest, you'll never get your sins forgiven, you'll never get to heaven. So there.

Why are these absurd men not hanged? Or at least deported. They are solid evidence that Jesus died on this earth.

Do you not read anything, either that the text says or what I say? Where does it say that 'speaking to us through a Son' is done on earth?

Then was this speaking done on Mars? The word 'Son' means manifestation, and one cannot manifest oneself in isolation.

Quote:

Where is a single saying of Jesus in Hebrews come from anything other than scripture?

That's neither here nor there. The great theme of Hebrews is the temptation of Jesus, that showed him perfect. As I often remark when offered a chocolate cake, one can resist anything but temptation. And Jesus was tempted, in the flesh, where we could see him, right here:

'Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity' (Heb 2:14 NIV).

'He suffered death' (Heb 2:9) right where we could see him.

'For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.' Heb 2:17-18 NIV

Quote:

You cannot just choose to make a text mean what you want it to mean.

True enough. I don't think I've ever seen such a complete inversion of intended meaning, ever.

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09-27-2012, 11:08 AM	#34
EarlDoherty Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,435	I don't have time today to respond in detail to your rebuttal, Ted, but I will briefly argue one point. No, it would not have been natural to use the past tense in regard to describing what the high priests on earth do, because they still do it. One can come up with all sorts of analogies to demonstrate that. You said that you made scrambled eggs using salt yesterday, but in this family we do not use salt in our scrambled eggs. Past tense in referring to a specific event in the past, but a comparison with a general and continuing practice throughout history. Exactly as we have in 8:4. THAT is the more natural way of putting it, and perfectly fits the situation in and my interpretation of Hebrews. That past act is being compared with a general practice which nevertheless operated at that specific point in the past, which is what the writer is specifically talking about. But it is still natural and legitimate to do so by making his reference to the general practice, which belongs in the present tense. Earl Doherty

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