Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 06-22-2012, 09:58 PM

http://www.passtheword.org/gospel-re...us-epistle.htm

I wonder if any new research has been done on this text since the New Testament Apocrypha (Wilhelm Schneemelcher, Robert McLachlan Wilson- 2003)? Truly fascinating. When was it written? Was it originally in Greek? What are some of the text mentioned here? Are there digital images of the manuscript?

stephan huller · 06-22-2012, 10:02 PM

Barbara Thiering writes "One passage reads: ‘the boy Gehazi assisted Elisha, as Baruch assisted Jeremiah’ . This group of persons is not naturally put together from the Old Testament, where they come from different histories ( Jer 36:4-8; 2 Kgs 4:25-37). The same conjunction is found in the Damascus Document: ‘This is the word which Jeremiah spoke to Baruch son of Neriah, and Elisha to his servant Gehazi’ (CD 8:20-21). The grouping is not found in the New Testament nor, apparently, elsewhere in Christian sources. It is good evidence of continuity with Qumran and of an early date for the Epistle of Titus."

Roger Pearse · 06-23-2012, 05:49 AM

Preview of Schneemelcher here. It's a text in Latin found in an 8th century manuscript, in favour of chastity. It may perhaps originate in Priscillianist circles in Spain in the 5th century A.D.

PhilosopherJay · 06-23-2012, 06:17 AM

Hi Roger,

Thanks for this Schneemelcher text reference.

If true and this does come from the 5th century, it suggests that even in the 5th century Catholics held the authority of the apocrypha such as "Acts of Paul and Thecla" to be on the same level as the gospels and epistles of Paul and that the text of the New Testament was still unstable and varied significantly in the 5th century.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Preview of Schneemelcher here. It's a text in Latin found in an 8th century manuscript, in favour of chastity. It may perhaps originate in Priscillianist circles in Spain in the 5th century A.D.

sotto voce · 06-23-2012, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Preview of Schneemelcher here. It's a text in Latin found in an 8th century manuscript, in favour of chastity. It may perhaps originate in Priscillianist circles in Spain in the 5th century A.D.

Quite likely. The 'barbarian hordes' were then making austerity and celibacy into virtues.

stephan huller · 06-23-2012, 11:05 AM

Unhappily married couples too

mountainman · 06-24-2012, 01:01 AM

There is a most interesting account inserted into this Epistle of Titus. The summary of the account is as follows.

A peasant seeks a prayer from Peter for his only daughter. As an immediate result of Christian prayer, the girl falls dead. The old man distrusts this grace and gets Peter to resurrect the girl. Later "a bewitched Christian man." makes off with the girl.

What sort of an account is this - is this supposed to be moralistic or is it supposed to be funny?

Here is the extract of the account:

Consider and take note of the happening about which the following account informs us:

A peasant had a girl who was a virgin. She was also his only daughter, and therefore he besought Peter to offer a prayer for her. After he had prayed, the apostle said to the father that the Lord would bestow upon her what was expedient for her soul. Immediately the girl fell down dead. O reward worthy and ever pleasing to God, to escape the shamelessness of the flesh and to break the pride of the blood! But this distrustful old man, failing to recognize the worth of the heavenly grace, i.e. the divine blessing, besought Peter again that his only daughter be raised from the dead. And some days later, after she had been raised, a man who passed himself off as a believer came into the house of the old man to stay with him, and seduced the girl, and the two of them never appeared again.

Toto · 06-24-2012, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

There is a most interesting account inserted into this Epistle of Titus. The summary of the account is as follows.

A peasant seeks a prayer from Peter for his only daughter. As an immediate result of Christian prayer, the girl falls dead. The old man distrusts this grace and gets Peter to resurrect the girl. Later "a bewitched Christian man." makes off with the girl.

What sort of an account is this - is this supposed to be moralistic or is it supposed to be funny?

Here is the extract of the account:

Consider and take note of the happening about which the following account informs us:

A peasant had a girl who was a virgin. She was also his only daughter, and therefore he besought Peter to offer a prayer for her. After he had prayed, the apostle said to the father that the Lord would bestow upon her what was expedient for her soul. Immediately the girl fell down dead. O reward worthy and ever pleasing to God, to escape the shamelessness of the flesh and to break the pride of the blood! But this distrustful old man, failing to recognize the worth of the heavenly grace, i.e. the divine blessing, besought Peter again that his only daughter be raised from the dead. And some days later, after she had been raised, a man who passed himself off as a believer came into the house of the old man to stay with him, and seduced the girl, and the two of them never appeared again.

It was not intended to be funny. It was moralistic from the point of view of someone who would think that having his virgin daughter seduced by a fake believer would be worse than her death. Such people have existed.

sotto voce · 06-24-2012, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

There is a most interesting account inserted into this Epistle of Titus. The summary of the account is as follows.

A peasant seeks a prayer from Peter for his only daughter. As an immediate result of Christian prayer, the girl falls dead. The old man distrusts this grace and gets Peter to resurrect the girl. Later "a bewitched Christian man." makes off with the girl.

What sort of an account is this - is this supposed to be moralistic or is it supposed to be funny?

It's intended as political conditioning. Peter has power, ergo, papacy has power, ergo, those who pay papacy have power.

mountainman · 06-24-2012, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It was not intended to be funny. It was moralistic from the point of view of someone who would think that having his virgin daughter seduced by a fake believer would be worse than her death. Such people have existed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

It's intended as political conditioning. Peter has power, ergo, papacy has power, ergo, those who pay papacy have power.

You started the OP stephan huller, so what is your opinion?

Any other opinions out there on this?

06-22-2012, 09:58 PM	#1
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The Most Interesting Manuscript from the Early Church - the Epistle of Titus http://www.passtheword.org/gospel-re...us-epistle.htm I wonder if any new research has been done on this text since the New Testament Apocrypha (Wilhelm Schneemelcher, Robert McLachlan Wilson- 2003)? Truly fascinating. When was it written? Was it originally in Greek? What are some of the text mentioned here? Are there digital images of the manuscript?

06-24-2012, 01:01 AM	#7
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	There is a most interesting account inserted into this Epistle of Titus. The summary of the account is as follows. A peasant seeks a prayer from Peter for his only daughter. As an immediate result of Christian prayer, the girl falls dead. The old man distrusts this grace and gets Peter to resurrect the girl. Later "a bewitched Christian man." makes off with the girl. What sort of an account is this - is this supposed to be moralistic or is it supposed to be funny? Here is the extract of the account: Consider and take note of the happening about which the following account informs us: A peasant had a girl who was a virgin. She was also his only daughter, and therefore he besought Peter to offer a prayer for her. After he had prayed, the apostle said to the father that the Lord would bestow upon her what was expedient for her soul. Immediately the girl fell down dead. O reward worthy and ever pleasing to God, to escape the shamelessness of the flesh and to break the pride of the blood! But this distrustful old man, failing to recognize the worth of the heavenly grace, i.e. the divine blessing, besought Peter again that his only daughter be raised from the dead. And some days later, after she had been raised, a man who passed himself off as a believer came into the house of the old man to stay with him, and seduced the girl, and the two of them never appeared again.

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06-22-2012, 10:02 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Barbara Thiering writes "One passage reads: ‘the boy Gehazi assisted Elisha, as Baruch assisted Jeremiah’ . This group of persons is not naturally put together from the Old Testament, where they come from different histories ( Jer 36:4-8; 2 Kgs 4:25-37). The same conjunction is found in the Damascus Document: ‘This is the word which Jeremiah spoke to Baruch son of Neriah, and Elisha to his servant Gehazi’ (CD 8:20-21). The grouping is not found in the New Testament nor, apparently, elsewhere in Christian sources. It is good evidence of continuity with Qumran and of an early date for the Epistle of Titus."

06-23-2012, 05:49 AM	#3
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Preview of Schneemelcher here. It's a text in Latin found in an 8th century manuscript, in favour of chastity. It may perhaps originate in Priscillianist circles in Spain in the 5th century A.D.

06-23-2012, 11:05 AM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Unhappily married couples too

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