Duvduv

Josephus says that Jannaeus *crucified* Pharisees, but the Talmud only says he killed them. There is no indication in Josephus of whether it was a latin cross or a chi rho or whatever.
As far as the stoning is concerned, he was hanged AFTER the stoning. But stoning doesn't mean throwing rocks but the person was taken up onto a platform and thrown head first down onto a stone slab. Then Yeshu's body was hanged from a tree.

sotto voce

The significance is that, in the biblical context, such a death could lead to atonement. It is the significance noted in Gal. 3:13: 'Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.' To die on a tree, or object made of 'tree', was to bring the curse of deity. This seems arbitrary, of course; there are several Deuteronomic curses promised, but none, apart from this one, seems arbitrary: but it is another OT pointer to atonement, along with texts like 'with his stripes we are healed,' and, 'the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.' (Isa 53:5, 6)

Having said that, there is good evidence that public hanging or obvious exposure of convicts was not uncommon, and considered particularly degrading, as indeed it was until modern times. This was intended as public warning; obviously the deceased could not experience public censure and the shameful indignity of hanging, but there was a potential sense of guilt in onlookers. Exposure of executed offenders was also used to appease deity.

'If a man guilty of a capital offence is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.' Dt 21:22-23 NIV

This can be re-written in terms of causation as follows.

'Be sure to bury him that same day'

for the immediate reason that:

'you must not leave his body on the tree overnight, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse'

for the ultimate reason that:

'if a man guilty of a capital offence is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, you must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.'

If the Promised Land is taken as the final inheritance, heaven, as may be supposed to be indicated by the context of Gal. 3:13, the removal of Jesus' body from the cross signifies the satisfaction of law, and the end of guilt of the land, i.e. the people in it, the Jews, and by extension, all people. In other words, penal substitutionary atonement.

Keith&Co.

I think it's European tradition. The sacrifice to renew life with the Green Man in Spring.

man hanged on tree til dead, his spirit was in that tree.
Burning the tree at midwinter released teh Green Man from the Yule Log to run out and bang the Maiden of the Triple Goddess. That brings the spring. Turns the Maiden into the Matron, the Matron slides to the Crone and life continues to cycle.

or not...

semiopen

My impression was that the person was on the ground and the rocks (which were sizable) thrown down. Can't imagine that I didn't read that, but who knows? Seems to be more efficient for the guy to climb up and get pushed off rather than schlepping big rocks up there.

Anyway, I think both this and/or your view is only Talmudic and it strikes me as dubious regarding actual historical practice. Especially if we get into impaling someone who is already dead... just seems peculiar.

Duvduv

The person was not impaled. After his death he would be hanged until nightfall on a tree.

semiopen

I would have sworn that someone mentioned in this thread that Deuteronomy 21:22-23 went this way -

Ki Tetzei

The reason is that eytz means tree or wood and if it's wood it could mean stake. The word lun is also unclear as it sort of means lodge which I guess can mean impale. Gentiles typically translate this as hang from a tree but this is hardly a slam dunk. Hopefully, the translators of JPS 1985 understand Hebrew better than me and the above is what they come up with.

It is worth mentioning that Deuteronomy 21 is the same paragraph where we get the laws of the beautiful captive, the two wives, and the asshole son. To say that the last part - the eytzing - has a simple meaning when the rest is so peculiar is hardly convincing.

Anyway the impale interpretation (which is reasonable by definition) is worth considering. If you are going to impale someone, why do it when they are dead, you make a mess but there is no orgasm. :huh:

From a historical perspective the Rabbis seem totally clueless (maybe you know better) about things that were going on even a few years in the past. Saying that they actually knew what was going on with this is pretty optimistic.

Duvduv

The Hebrew in those verses are all from the root TALA meaning "HANG." He was hanged on a scaffold. Interestingly enough the word used in the targums for the verb and noun for scaffolding with the root tsade-lamed-bet is used in modern Hebrew to refer to crucifixion/crucify. In any case, the sinner is killed by stoning and then hanged on the scaffold.

semiopen

I have no doubt that your Hebrew is better than mine.

However, every 60 years or so JPS makes a new translation of the bible and my guess is that the guys that they get to do this are pretty good at it.

That doesn't mean they are right, but it does mean that your explanation is probably too simplistic.

Criticizing such an important work on this level reminds me of the famous Steven Spielberg scene in Goldmember

I agree with you about scaffold though, the post title and other posts that refer to tree are quite dubious.

Duvduv

The rabbinic commentaries and targums give the meaning of "etz " as scaffold. Not a plain tree, which would presumably have no practical difference. Of course the hanging devices were presumably made out of wood which is also etz. I guess the Greek translated it literally as tree.

Sheshbazzar

I believe the distinction is in that the word "etz" refers to a -material- 'tree' or 'wood'.
The -form- or shape of the -material- be it a wooden limb, scaffold, gallows, pole, stump, or cross, is to be accepted as being by intent, left ambiguous and open.

This intentionally allows the simple statement to cover the broadest circumstances of application.
Thus any piece of wood that is convenient on which to fasten the miscreant will suffice to 'get the job done' and carry out the intent of The Commandment, and bring into effect its curse. Traveling in the desert with no large trees around? No problem, grab a tent pole.

As written the sentence could be speedily carried out on whatever piece of wood was readily available.
No dilly-dallying around searching for the 'right' materials or time wasted in assembling any elaborate constructions. Potentially, as a last resort, even simply being impaled with a sharpened stake would serve. (Think Phinehas, Num 25:6-15)

Once being found -guilty- and 'worthy of death'; Carry out the Sentence. Get 'er DONE! and -get it over with- TODAY.
Convicted, Sentenced, Executed, and Buried TODAY, BEFORE the sun goes down.

It defiled The Land to allow one who was judged 'worthy of death' to live to see another day. (which would have began at sunset)

Just noted that we have been entertaining Charlie Manson for over 40 years now. And his warped mind is still mesmerizing a sick fan-club and defiling the land.






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