jgibson000

For whom? For any of the writers whose use of OYIA intance as illustraing the meaning of this word?

But are they? Can you please give me some evidence that they are?

Here is the entry:

I see nothing there of what you claim. What am I missing?

Are you relying on Thayer?
JG

yummyfur

Sorry I originally thought you posted the LSJ entry, not the BDAG. I was just refering to what the BDAG said.

It doesn't really matter if they use the equal or unequal system, the word refers to the last three hours of DAY, there are 12 hours of DAY and 12 hours of NIGHT in the ancient system. In the unequal system the 1st hour of day starts sunrise the 6th hour is when the sun is at it's peak(noon) and the 12th hour ends at sunset. so LATE part of the DAY means before the 12th hour is finished, by definition. The hours are different lengths depending on the time of year, but at the Spring Equinox(and Fall) they are 60 minutes long.

In the equal system, all hours are 60 minutes, and so can be correlated easier to our modern clock, the 6th hour is the peak of the sun(noon) with 6 equal hours before and after. In the equal system, sometimes(in the winter) the last three hours of the DAY(still the 9th-12th hour) there will sometimes be some darkness. In our case though, Passover is close to the Spring Equinox, so even the unequal system will only have slightly longer than 60 minute hours.

The problem you are coming upon is that in English, Evening actually refers to any time from late afternoon through early part of night, it is probably the best word to use in translation, but it does not correlate exactly, but you are trying to read the English word Evening as much narrower than it is (to mean after sunset).

The LSJ say "latter part of the DAY", where in the ancient world DAY(12 hours of day) and NIGHT have actual definite meanings, so the latter part of the DAY, can't be at NIGHT or darkness, ever if using the unequal system, not during Passover even if using the equal system.

yummyfur

OK, now that I can get on Perseus, it's so slow, isn't the correct entry from LSJ this?

opsios , a, on, ( [opse] )

A. late, opsiai en nukti Pi.I.4(3).35(53) ; hotan ear o. genêtai Arist.HA553b20 , cf. 627b20; o. suka, puroi, etc., Thphr. HP2.8.1, 8.4.3, etc.; [ôia] ta men prôïa ta d' o. Arist.HA543a10; cf. opsia.

II. Att. Comp. opsiaiteros, a, on, later, Id.Mete.362a24, al., Thphr.CP1.10.5: Sup. opsiaitatos, ê, on, X.HG5.4.3: hence opsiaiteron as Adv., Comp. of opse, Pl.Cra.433a, Thphr.HP3.2.1, Eub.119.11: Sup. opsiaitata, opp. prôïaitata, Pl.Prt.326c, X.HG4.5.18, etc.: also Comp. opsiesteros as v.l. in Thphr. (CP4.8.3, HP3.4.6): also shortd. form opsitera, halôsis Pi.Pae.6.82 ; opsiteron Plu.2.119c ; opsitaton Poll.1.69 ; opsiteron tês hôras BGU759.6 (ii A. D.), cf. PTeb.230 (ii B. C.).


So really, the line should read "and already it was getting late"

jgibson000

Yes, but it also says more than that.

Could you please provide some evidence for this rather global claim?

Can you please tell me where in the passage in question the words NUKTOS and hHMERA are used?

You may very well be right in your assertions about the words for day and night having definite meanings in the ancient world. But as far as I can see, whether they did (or didn't) is entirely irrelevant to the matter at hand, since this terminology isn't employed in the verse that is under investigation.

Jeffrey Gibson

jgibson000

No. OYIOS, omicron psi iota omicron nu), A, ON is an adjective. The word used in Mark is a noun.

No.

Jeffrey Gibson

skinumb

Interesting debate. Have to admit I'm confused. Just wish I'd paid more attention in classics classes at school now.