skinumb

I've got myself into a debate with a Christian fundamentalist over the reliability of the NT Gospels as Jesus evidence. I've tried the logical approach (yes, I know) and have pointed, amongst other things, to the apparant blunders in "Mark" over Jewish customs.

One I raised is Joseph breaking the Sabbath and have quoted KJV Mark 15:42 “And when even was now come…” and RSV "When evening was already come,” so clearly after sunset and on the Sabbath. But he has responded with NIV "So as evening approached…” which I suppose could be a tidying up to get round the problem.

It's a bit petty I know, but I'd rather not concede the point, but not reading Greek I can't tell which translation is nearest to the original. I was wondering if anyone with access to say Lattimore could help 'cos I can't get to the town library in the near future.

Apologies in advance if I've posted this in the wrong place, but I can't think of anywhere else to ask the question. I've scoured the archives and can't see anything to help.

Rich

Toto

You can try Young's literal translation

Peter Kirby

Wait, how does referring him to another translation help?

I'm sorry I haven't gotten to looking up the Greek yet. Been busy exploring the Citizendium.

regards,
Peter Kirby

Toto

It helps to confuse him further. Young's Literal Translation is supposed to be the closest. It indicates that the evening had come, but that it was the "fore-sabbath."

gstafleu

The word the Greek uses is προσαββατον (prosabbat), which indeed sounds rather fore-sabbatical to me. The whole verse, in case anybody who really knows Greek is watching:
42και ηδη οψιας γενομενης επει ην παρασκευη ο εστιν προσαββατον
(Scriverner version)

Gerard

yummyfur

The Greek οψιας, can refer to either the period of 3pm to 6pm, or the period 6pm to night, also the word can just mean a more general "late". It's clear from the context of this, that it probably refers to the period from 3pm to 6pm. Jesus died at about the ninth hour, which would be about 3pm, depending on whether the writer was using the equal hour system or the system with unequal hours, though since this is Passover and therefor close to the equinox, it wouldn't be too far from 3pm in the unequal system.

skinumb

So, if "Mark" understood Jewish days that would point to a Thursday execution, with Joseph buying the linen Thursday evening Roman time, which is out of step. Or "Mark", working on a Friday execution, didn't know that Jewish time makes sunset the Sabbath.

Either way "Mark" has blundered. If a Friday execution: i) the unliklihood of Joseph buying cloth on the Sabbath (though possible if absolutely necessary for a temporary burial) and ii) because he actually describes Roman Friday-evening as the fore-sabbath, when to a local it is already Sabbath, or iii) to get round those blunders we have to let "Mark" execute Jesus a day early.

Does that make sense?

And thanks all for the help.

Rich

jgibson000

I'm not sure where you get this 3pm to 6pm business. It's not in LSJ. And here's what BDAG notes.

2. In our lit. mostly subst. h` ovyi,a (sc. w[ra; B-D-F §241, 3) the period between late afternoon and darkness, evening (Ael. Aristid. 48, 50 K.=24 p. 478 D.; POxy 475, 16 [182 AD] ovyi,aj ‘in the evening'; 528, 5 kaqV e`ka,sthj h`me,raj kai. ovyi,aj; PGM 1, 69; Jdth 13:1 w`j ovyi,a evge,neto) usu. in the combination ovyi,aj de. genome,nhj when evening came (Syntipas p. 49, 11; TestSol 1:42; Jos., Ant. 5, 7) Mt 8:16; 14:15, 23; 20:8; 26:20; 27:57; Mk 1:32 (the double expr. ovy. genome,nhj, o[te e;dusen o` h[l. is like Herm. Wr. 1, 29); Hs 9, 11, 6. ovyi,aj genome,nhj in the evening Mt 16:2; Mk 4:35; 6:47; 14:17. h;dh ovy. genome,nhj 15:42. Also ou;shj ovyi,aj (Jos., Ant. 5, 140) J 20:19. w`j ovy. evge,neto (s. Jdth above) 6:16. The context oft. makes it easier to decide just what time is meant, whether before or after sundown.—B. 997. DELG s.v. ovye,. M-M.


JG

skinumb

Do I take it from this that Mk 15:42 means 'in the evening' in its context?

Daft question perhaps, what is BDAG?

I'm tearing my hair out at the moment on a BBC message board thread trying to keep pace with a xtian fundamentalist who just keeps throwing loads of quotes from biblical scholars at me to demonstrate I'm marching alone in claiming the evidence for Jesus is flimsy, that Josephus & co. are interpolated, that the Gospels can't be treated as historically reliable. All the usual stuff I'm sure.

He's clearly pulling his stuff from a Christian apologist site and from his wife who has done an Open University course (or degree) in Christian fundamentalism, or some such. Latest is a long list of scholars who say butter wouldn't melt in Eusebius' mouth and that Josephus is the most respected classical historian there ever was, so I must be some kind of idiot to even think the one could be responsible for advocating 'interpolation' and that the other could be interpolated.

I may have to come back for some help on two or three more queries until I've found myself a killer get out. I hope that's okay.

yummyfur

Actually the BDAG notes do, "late afternoon" ends at the 9th hour, or our 3pm if they are using the equal hour system. "Evening" or "darkness" starts at 1st hour(of night), or our 6pm again if they are using the equal hour system. Again, since this is near the spring equinox, the differences between the equal and unequal systems are somewhat irrelevant for Jesus's being taken down from the cross.

The "late part of the day" is the 3pm tp 6pm(the last three hours of the day) if the writer is using the equal hour system (which could mean in the winter that it might actually be dark before 6pm, so this adds to the confusion), if they are not using the equal hour system it would be the last three hours till darkness, which depending on the time of year(because the length of an hour changes) could be after 6pm, though it's always before darkness in the unequal system. Since this event is near the spring equinox, the hours would be fairly close to 60 minutes in length so either system would be fairly close to each other. In English, evening's main meaning is "the latter part of the day and early part of the night." so it is broader than what the Greek implies, thus the confusion.