post tenebras lux

OK. So it is a good thing - from the child's point of view, if I ensure that their 'appointed hour to die in the flesh' is as soon as possible, no?

Lovely, lovely 'Divine purpose'!

Luxie - off to bash some babies' heads in and to drown a few others.

Sheshbazzar

Has YHWH Elohim spoken to you? and commanded you to do such a thing?

post tenebras lux

Why would he have to? :huh:


And would it make a difference if he had?

Sheshbazzar

As you brought it up, do you harbor a desire to so engage yourself?

Would you rather just go ahead do it on your own initiative? without any instruction or encouragement from any higher authority?
If so, I cannot but conclude that you are even "funnier" in the head than I am.
Perhaps you should consult with your doctor for your 'illness' so that he can increase your meds, as it is your conversation reveals that you really ought not to be trusted around innocent children.
No, I don't think your flippant replies are funny, and given the amount of such acts presently being committed, most child welfare workers will not be sharing a chuckle with you over your 'cleverness' either.

post tenebras lux

Can a child (or any man, woman or animal) die without it being foreseen by your god, Sheshbazzar? Without it being part of your god's plan? Here's your statement again:So, can little old Luxie thwart your god's Divine purpose Sheshbazzar?

Personally I hope so: I wouldn't work in the humanitarian sector if I thought that all our efforts achieved nothing of benefit, if I thought that each life we saved was actually inflicting a cruel and unusual punishment upon the child in question. The cruel punishment being in forcing that child to continue living and thus 'suffering' instead of allowing it to 'sleep' before 'awakening in glory'.
The unusual part, of course, is that life is not usually viewed as a punishment.


What 'higher power', Sheshbazzar? I'm atheist, in case you hadn't guessed, so even if I ever were to start hearing voices in my head telling me to butcher children, I would ignore them and might indeed think about visiting a suitably qualified doctor.

Unhappily, the fortunately rare - but not rare enough - instances where theists have butchered or maimed their own children whilst convinced that their god was commanding it, reminds me that people who believe in an non-existent 'higher power' who talks to them personally can - on occasion - be very dangerous.
With all due respect Sheshbazzar, it was you who made the flippant (and - to me - obnoxious) remark: the one I've already reposted above. IMHO, any child welfare worker who really and genuinely thinks that children who die from abuse go to a 'far, far, better place' should be banned from working in that field.

Perhaps you would care to take BadBadBad's 'Joshua Challenge'?

Sheshbazzar

No.
No.
No.
Men, women, children, and animals do die, No matter how much effort is expended or how noble the intentions, it is the destiny of all living, each life you "save" is only saved for a very short time. that IS a fact of life.
My mother was rushed to the hospital, and her life was "saved" two months ago, we held her funeral two weeks ago.
It is my belief that those who are gone suffer no more feelings of sorrow or loss, no regret nor care at all for the friends, family and the life left behind.
But we the living are the ones that lose our loved ones, and mourn for the good times that the departed will now never again be able to share in, and it is all the more painful when that one was a child, or a young mother with the prospect of a full life ahead, whose life was tragically cut short.
Certainly we achieve something of benefit when we "save" a life, but it is us the living who are the only ones profited by our efforts.
I do not take such a negative view of this life, my children and my grandchildren are certainly a delight to me, I take great pleasure in working with my hands, and live a joy filled life, with strong bonds to my family and friends, I savor the beauty of each and every day; Do I then desire to die? Only to escape my tiny portion of suffering in this world? YAH forbid!
My joys and my pleasures certainly exceed my sufferings a thousandfold, and I would never willingly abandon my loved ones, or bring them sadness.
And yet I recognize my mortality, and my limitations, the sand has well ran through my hourglass, and I know my appointed hour is now far nearer than that of my birth.
Yet I do not worry or fret over that matter, being confident in a promise.

Yes, it is a shame what some people will do in the name of religion, of course some are just mentally unbalanced and their 'god' just a convenient excuse and scapegoat, just a variation on 'the devil made me do it', all the same in effect.
But that is hardly a fair way to judge the great majority of believers, most of whom live quiet, peaceable and productive lives, raising their families and making many good contributions to humanity. I'd even suspect that there may have been a believer or two even in your own family tree, do you despise these, your own ancestors who were responsible for your being here, as much as you despise the believers in society now around you?
These children that DO "die from abuse" are then already "dead" right? There is absolutely nothing more you as an atheist can do for them that is going to change their fate.
Have you seen what some of these have suffered on their way out? most compassionate people, would conclude that they were mercifully removed, obviously society, and the child welfare workers were too late to be of any assistance. Some of us believe that these little innocents will wake up to a life far better than they ever received in the care of anyone in this age.

Buster Daily

Yes, certainly. Would you say that Abraham was mentally imbalanced? Could you sacrifice your own son? Could you send another into the desert to die? How about Jephthah? He is truly a better man than I, because there is no f*&king way I would murder my own daughter no matter what oaths I took. Sorry. Are these the mentally unbalanced people you are talking about?

Agreed. And I am certain you are a good person as well. I am genuinely sorry about your mother.

post tenebras lux

So any kids I bopped over the head and killed would have been predestined to be bopped over their heads and killed according to your god's 'Divine purpose' and his 'Eternal plan'. I would merely be doing your god's work. Notice, he's your god, not mine.Maybe according to your worldview it is 'only' a 'very short time', but from my point of view it is a very very long time. This life we're living is the only life we will live, the time period that elapses from our birth to our death is the only period of time we will ever know.
Why? If you think her dieing meant an end to her suffering and would allow her to only sleep before being raised in Glory - then why did you prolong her 'suffering'? Are you truely that selfish?
Make your mind up Sheshbazzar: now you're trying to claim that their lives are being tragically cut short, but before you were trying to claim that their death was 'only a temporary removal from sufferings'. So which is it?
Then why make that stupid and bigotted (IMHO) statement in the first place? Dead children have not 'escaped suffering, to only sleep awhile, before awaking to Glory', they are stone-cold dead and - if they're lucky and not just chucked on the rubbish heap - buried.
But you won't accept that the dead child's life would have been the same? Why don't you accept that if the child had lived, the 'joys and pleasures' in its life would also have certainly exceeded its sufferings 'a thousandfold'?
When was your mother's 'appointed time' (yet another sick idea, IMHO)? Was it in hospital or two weeks later? And if the ambulance taking her to hospital had had a flat tyre and so didn't make it in time - would that nail lieing in the road have all been part of your god's 'Divine plan'?
Again, so why did you prolong your mother's 'suffering' and delay her merciful release so that she could 'only sleep', etc?

Doesn't sound like you were that confident about it to me.
But everything we do, and everything they do, is all part of your god's 'Divine plan', right?
So the fact that these people are 'mentally unbalanced' (wot, they're not suffering demonic possession?) is all part of your god's 'Divine plan', right?
Ditto the fact that they then decided to take heed of the voices in their heads and kill their own children is all part of your god's 'Divine plan', right?
None who buy into this hateful 'Divine plan' crapola.

Why change the tense I used? I used that tense because I meant to use that tense. I did not say 'children who have died from abuse have gone to', I said 'children who die from abuse go to ...'. Do you notice the difference?

But then - according to your theory about your god's 'Divine plan' - these children were predestined to die from the abuse, so maybe you don't see a difference.
Yes. I have also seen what some of them suffered and survived - should I tell them that they would have been better off dead?

I can only conclude that you live surrounded by very sick people. They are DEAD, their life has ENDED, it has been SNUFFED OUT - and you call it being 'mercifully removed'?
So why did you try and prevent your mother from being 'mercifully removed'?
You seem to believe that only when it's somebody else's child, somebody else's mother, but you don't seem to have believed it for your own mother and I really doubt that you would believe it for your own children.

Hey, I notice you snipped the bit about BadBadBad's 'Joshua Challenge'. Any reason for that?

What would you have done if Joshua handed you that bloodied sword?

PS Earlier you had recommended that I keep taking my 'meds': but surely whether I take my 'meds' or forget/refuse to is all part of your god's 'Divine plan'?

I'm confused: can I thwart your god's 'Divine plan' or not?

Sheshbazzar

Reality accommodates all that happens. If you were to go around bopping kids over the head and killing others, it would be in a willful violation of the laws that you have been taught all of your life, having free will you are permitted to make your own choices, no matter how perverse.
Whatever those choices are, reality accepts and accommodates to them, Cereal for breakfast? or eggs and toast?, a small choice for one man, but whether you will actually get either, both, something else, or nothing at all, is dependent upon the countless billions of factors called "life" or "reality" in which all that exists and happens, takes its place.
That continuum "in which we live, and move, and have our being." some people choose to identify that life and reality sustaining force by the term "god", I do not, I have no "god".
That you even use the term is evidence that this "god" of yours is YOURS, fashioned in your own mind, in your own image, to fit your own misconceptions.
Notice, he is YOUR "god", not mine.
I feel sorry for you that your view of reality, of the universe, and of eternity is so limited.
That tiny period of time that you choose to limit your conception of life to, is less than a snap of the fingers against the length of eternity, but within that brief span, we are given a choice, and the admonishment is to "choose life" which was not spoken with respect to a duration of a very few short years, but of eternity.

Why would you desire that;

"This life we're living is the only life we will live, the time period that elapses from our birth to our death is the only period of time we will ever know."

When even the very slightest, even the tiniest, remotest possibility existed that you might attain to living forever.?
Do you not see how much greater the universe and eternity is than this small world and your own short life?
Are you really so vain, or so naive as to think that the only intelligent life in the universe exists on this little speck of dust that you will so briefly inhabit?
If you want to revel in displaying a sentience on the level of an amoeba throughout the few years that remain to you, who will prevent it.


As I said, earlier, I don't believe in your "god"
However if you are convinced that you can out-think, out-plan, and out-maneuver what Reality has set in store for you,
You are welcomed to try, go ahead, give it your best shot, after all it is only your own life and your own opportunity for more of it, and you are free to throw it all away.

Julian

Ooooh, Pascal's wager. That's really lame. Your argument has no substance to it whatsoever, but falling back on Pascal's wager is a pathetic argument.
Strawmen.
[MOD]
This could be misconstrued as an ad hominem comment. I will read it as a hypothetical sentence, but be careful to distinguish between comments against the person as opposed to his or her posts.
[/MOD]

Julian