mountainman

We have only a small part of the mural. For a start I dont think we should hastily rule out the consideration of other possible explanations. An alternative explanation may involve a mural featuring the Graeco-Roman figure Orion.

GakuseiDon

Well, let's not hastily rule that out then. What part of the Orion story does the mural represent? Who is that with Orion? Why are their arms reached out towards each other?

It matches well with the Gospel story, which would have been a well-known scene from the Gospel that naturally lends itself to being depicted visually as a mural. Is there an equivalent from the Orion story?

mountainman

Here's what the above WIKI page shows:

It appears reasonable that the books of Hesiod may have at been at Dura Europos in the 3rd century, far more popular than the books of the new testament canon (if it existed at that time). Therefore to make the claim that these murals are "christian" without any reservations is IMO a very premature judgement, which is not proven by the evidence.


Another non christian Walking on Water story. It is rather a myopic claim that the books of the new testament contain the only possible explanation for the artistic motif of the Dura-Europos-Yale murals. Stories and legends about such obviously fabulous events may have abounded before swimming made it into the Olympic Games.

GakuseiDon

Right, that's fine. I understand and I agree. But what part of the Orion myth would the mural match? We have a match with a scene from the Gospels. What do we have on the Orion side?

mountainman

On the Orion (and other possibilities) side we have an unknown number of lost accounts. It is not mandatory to reach a final conclusion without conclusive evidence. I do not consider these murals to be conclusive evidence of anything. This certainly includes the "Historical" Jesus.

GakuseiDon

That's going to be true of a lot of things in the ancient world. How would you factor "unknown number of lost accounts" into any theory other than your own?

I'm not asking for "final conclusions". Simply: what are the alternatives based on the extant literature?

The mural fits a scene from the Gospels well. It doesn't appear to fit any scene from stories about Orion. Would that be fair to say?

Based on what we know about the Jesus myth and the Orion myth, which one fits the content of the mural?

Sheshbazzar

Whether any of these murals are intended to depict scenes from the gospels, it is no evidence that any of these miracles ever happened, or that there ever was a flesh and blood living human 'Jebus', Ea'zeus or Y'shuah (or by any other name, or form of a name)

The Gospel stories are fictional, the Gospel events are fictional, the Gospels god/man is fictional, and never lived on or walked on this earth in any flesh and blood human body.

At the most these murals depict a mythological god-being that an ancient cult worshiped.
We have hundreds if not thousands of similar murals and statues of many other ancient Greek, Roman, and Mesopotamian gods in human form.
Do you, who desire to defend the idea of a real HJ being behind the Christian MYTHS, wish to give the same level of credence to all of these other ancient MYTHS, based on the existence of ancient murals depicting them as having human bodies?
Adonis was a god, and a lot of ancient Greeks bare the name Adonis. Is that a reason to believe that there must have been a real flesh and blood human Adonis at the root of all of the invented Adonis MYTHOLOGY?
A hundred other ancient god's could be mentioned, and their MYTHOLOGICAL 'histories' reviewed.

Other than having been stuffed down peoples throats for over a thousand years at the point of a sword, what makes the mythical stories of this MYTHICAL character any more evidence that there was real human man at its root than any of these other gods?

Legends can be beautiful and uplifting to the human spirit, when received as being legends.
But a sick religion promotes religious lies as being truths, deluding and encouraging religious liars into fabrications of further lies.
Lies are shouted from the pulpits, lies are proclaimed from the pews, lies are swapped on the street corners, and over the air waves. DAMN all the liars!

Sheshbazzar

The Christan church robbed others of many of their motifs early on, and would have banned, burned, and destroyed any earlier 'pagan' stories or depictions that were too obviously the source of their cribbed versions.

jakejonesiv

Wow wee, Jesus looked like Madonna.

mountainman

The historical truth needs to be factored into all theories, not just my own. And the historical truth of the matter is that, even if we allow these murals to have been painted in the early 3rd century at Dura, the interpretation of these murals needs to take into account the historical truth that at that time there may have been many extant texts and stories that underly the artistic impressions on display at NYU.


As long as you understand, from the above, that examining alternatives based on the extant literature is wishful thinking (because so many Persian-Graeco-Roman texts are lost), then we can look at some of the alternative varieties of "wishful thinking"

It would be fair to claim, as wishful thinking, that the gospel scenes could have been the basis for the Dura murals if and only if one could simultaneously claim and establish as an historical fact that the new testament books were available to the artistic denizens of Dura-Europos in the early 3rd century.


The Orion myth (as one example only) is certainly old enough and well known enough to fit the content of the mural. I have my doubts whether the Jesus myth is old enough. We have seen how some academics are claiming that the new testament books were only assembled in their final state in the late second century. To find artistic impressions taken from the books of an extremely small insignificant and largely unknown late 2nd century sect appearing by the early 3rd century on the walls of the empire-border-town of Dura-Europos house is of low probability imo.

Also, we dont have the whole "Where's Wally Jesus" mural to look at since only a small part of the overall scene has been recovered. Making assessments which authoritatively pronounce as christian the motifs of this mural is analogous to clutching at straws. If people had in their possession some better evidence for either (a) Jesus, or (b) the books of the New Testament or (c) the nation of christians (including their churches and bishops) we would not be discussing the conjectural Dura find.