Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 01-21-2008, 12:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

So in your opinion were the Tyre prophecies written before or after the fact?

Before, and revised after.

If it was revised after, why weren't the correction made? You make a judgment on absolutely no proof whatsoever. Do you have evidence of the original text of the tyre prophecy and another revised text? If you don't then you have no basis to make your absurd claims.

sugarhitman · 01-21-2008, 12:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Darklighter

Just for the sake of clarity, I'd like to post all of Ez. 26 (NIV):

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1 In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem, 'Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,' 3 therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.

The writer is CLEARLY speaking about the island here, as is evidenced by the fact that Ezekiel tacs on the "settlements" in vs. 6. Sugar, the BIBLE itself is calling whatever is on the mainland "settlements," not a "city". The wording of vs. 1-5 make it plainly clear that Ezekiel is speaking of the ISLAND CITY and not the "settlements," again, by the fact that he makes a distinction between the two. And the distinction is clearly geographical NOT chronological. Only in vs. 6 is our attention turned to the mainland.

Continuing...

Again, the wording indicates judgement against BOTH the island and the "settlements on the mainland." As I said before, "settlements" do not equal "city", Ezekiel cleary realized this.

First part bolded: While I guess you could say that this part applies to Alexander scraping up the ruins of the "settlements" and dumping them into the sea, it certainly makes more visual sense to think of an island city as toppeling into the ocean. Not a big risk on Ezekiels part. But again, the wording appears to be directed at the main island. "I will make you a bare rock" makes more sense if referring to an island "in the midst of the sea." The second part I bolded speaks for itself. The fact that "Tyre" (in any form) still exists is extremely devastating to the 'divine' source of this prophecy.

Such lamenting would be quite the overreaction in light of the fact that Nebby failed to take the MAIN island city and Tyre quickly recovered after Alexanders attack.

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19 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place [b] in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD."

The second part I bolded, again, only makes sense if referring to an island. The rest of the wording indicates that "Tyre" (in any form) will no londer be inhabited. The very fact that "Tyre" (in any form) can TODAY be "sought" and "found" (and visited, and lived in, and has a fracking mayor) proves the prophecy false.

There's no need to split historical hairs, Ezekiel 26 speaks for itself.

Tyre proves god does not exist. :wave:

Mr. Darkwater, verse 5 reads It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea (note nets are spread in the sea). Meaning that this shall be a place mainly for fishing its main economic activity (which has come true). Tyrus consisted of two locations. The mainland and the island. Now compare this with verse 14 "And I will make you like the top of a rock: you will be a place to spread nets UPON, you shalt not be built no more." It is a known fact that the inhabitants who live on the causeway are largely fishers who dry their nets on the mainland after they have spreaded their nets IN THE MIDST OF THE SEA. In fact both Sur and those who live on the causeway are largely fishing sites. Even the Britannica admits this. God did not say that Nebby or the other nations would destroy Tyre completely, these sites will be destroyed when he bury it in the sea. The fact that God predicted that Tyre would be a place for fishing before its ultimate destruction, proves that He does indeed exist, and is watching His Word come true. And so are we. :wave:

sugarhitman · 01-21-2008, 12:56 PM

Mr. Darkwater I will encourage you to look at verse 19 closely God says that he will make Tyre desolate and uninhabited when he bury it deep beneath the sea. Now if this is referring to the mainland this is an obvious contradiction because in verse 14 this site is a bare rock it is not there and certainly not a city. The mainland city is the only part of Tyre that was turned into a bare rock...literally. This judgement is against the island. Because one cannot be a bare rock to spreads net upon (on) and be buried beneath the sea at the same time. Common sense is what is needed here. adios

Johnny Skeptic · 01-21-2008, 01:15 PM

Message to sugarhitman: What evidence do you have that the Tyre prophecy was not made before the events, or that it was made before the events and was not later revised?

It is obvious that Tyre prophecy is fraudulent because God did not tell Ezekiel about Alexander, thereby giving generations of Tyrians confidence that the God of the Bible did not inspire the Tyre prophecy, and causing many Jews for several generations to doubt the truthfulness of the prophecy, especially when Nebuchadnezzar, "a king of kings," failed to defeat Tyre like Ezekiel thought he would, and since God broke his promise to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar.

Sheshonq · 01-21-2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Zek names not one weapon used in sea battles for Nebby.

So? Ezekiel wasn't exactly a military historian.

Still waiting on your answer: do you think that Nebuchadnezzar marched tens of thousands of soldiers from Babylon, knowing he was going to war against an island city, only to slap himself on the forehead and say, "D'OH! Forgot the damn boats!"

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History says that Nebby siege the island but does not give any detail what-so-ever

Wrong.

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Because he didnt.

Also wrong.

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And no there was no causeway you found one source who says this where did he get this information that general history does not mention?

1. There was a causeway.
2. I gave you the source.
3. Son, you don't know enough about the topic to be telling us "history doesn't mention such-and-such."

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History has it that there was indeed a city on the mainland, and not just a "suburb."

However, at the time of Ezekiel, the main and dominant city was on the island. The mainland was only the suburbs and the farms.

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Isaiah has Tyre restablishing itself after the seventy year rule of Babylon. Jeremiah has Tyre listed as one of the nations who would SERVE Babylon for seventy years.

So? The bible is full of bad history. What actually happened was a nominal truce, and Tyre remained independent.

Sheshonq · 01-21-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

[IMG]www.ancientworlds.net[/IMG]

The idea of picking up an encyclopedia or an actual history book scares the death out of fundamentalists, apparently.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-21-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

[IMG]www.ancientworlds.net[/IMG]

What does that web site have to do with the Tyre prophecy? If you have something in particular to discuss from the web site, please post it. You should not expect skeptics to do your homework for you.

chrisengland · 01-21-2008, 01:49 PM

Hello
I'm sorry I am running short of time tonight.
It is gone 9:30 here so I'm not going to be writing my part tonight.
I need to go through my notes and that.
Anyway because one of you asked' presonaly I think it was written before because you have two options it was either written by a prophet of God or it was written by human who thought he was a prophet of God.
If it was a prophet of God then it was of course written before the event.
If it was written by a normal human then I can't see why it he would write it in that way.
I meen if he wanted to pretend he had written a prophecy why not just say Nebachadnezzer will invade Tyre and then after a 13 year siege they will agree terms ect' and leave no dought that he didn't meen that Nebachadnezzer will destroy Tyre?
But I don't know enough to say for sure' I don't know if some scholars think bits were added to it later.
One thing I think you have to think though is that if somebody claimed to be psychic' but they claimed after the event had happened that they had predidcted it' but they showed you something like a diary entrance or something dated before the event' knowone would say' well you can't prove they didn't write in their diary after the event' people would say prove they write it before the event.
You need to think about that.
Chris

arnoldo · 01-21-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to sugarhitman: What evidence do you have that the Tyre prophecy was not made before the events, or that it was made before the events and was not later revised?

It is obvious that Tyre prophecy is fraudulent because God did not tell Ezekiel about Alexander, .

You neglect the fact that God told Daniel about Alexander. Oh wait, the book of Daniel is a self -fulfilled prophecy, er, it was written after the fact, no it was written before and then revised after. . .

Johnny Skeptic · 01-21-2008, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to sugarhitman: What evidence do you have that the Tyre prophecy was not made before the events, or that it was made before the events and was not later revised?

It is obvious that Tyre prophecy is fraudulent because God did not tell Ezekiel about Alexander.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

You neglect the fact that God told Daniel about Alexander. Oh wait, the book of Daniel is a self-fulfilled prophecy, er, it was written after the fact, no it was written before and then revised after.

Why do you insist on making so many off-topic posts. Since you obviously do not believe that the Tyre prophecy is able to stand upon its own merits, and that the book of Daniel can stand upon its own merits, why are you wasting your time and other people's time in this thread instead of making posts in the thread on Daniel that I recently started. Are you going tell me that you do not have any idea why threads have names that identify what they are about?

If you and I debated Daniel in the thread that deals with that topic, would you try to validate the book of Daniel with the Tyre prophecy?

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01-21-2008, 12:56 PM	#103
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	Mr. Darkwater I will encourage you to look at verse 19 closely God says that he will make Tyre desolate and uninhabited when he bury it deep beneath the sea. Now if this is referring to the mainland this is an obvious contradiction because in verse 14 this site is a bare rock it is not there and certainly not a city. The mainland city is the only part of Tyre that was turned into a bare rock...literally. This judgement is against the island. Because one cannot be a bare rock to spreads net upon (on) and be buried beneath the sea at the same time. Common sense is what is needed here. adios

01-21-2008, 01:15 PM	#104
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to sugarhitman: What evidence do you have that the Tyre prophecy was not made before the events, or that it was made before the events and was not later revised? It is obvious that Tyre prophecy is fraudulent because God did not tell Ezekiel about Alexander, thereby giving generations of Tyrians confidence that the God of the Bible did not inspire the Tyre prophecy, and causing many Jews for several generations to doubt the truthfulness of the prophecy, especially when Nebuchadnezzar, "a king of kings," failed to defeat Tyre like Ezekiel thought he would, and since God broke his promise to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar.

01-21-2008, 01:49 PM	#108
chrisengland Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bristol' England Posts: 2,678	Hello I'm sorry I am running short of time tonight. It is gone 9:30 here so I'm not going to be writing my part tonight. I need to go through my notes and that. Anyway because one of you asked' presonaly I think it was written before because you have two options it was either written by a prophet of God or it was written by human who thought he was a prophet of God. If it was a prophet of God then it was of course written before the event. If it was written by a normal human then I can't see why it he would write it in that way. I meen if he wanted to pretend he had written a prophecy why not just say Nebachadnezzer will invade Tyre and then after a 13 year siege they will agree terms ect' and leave no dought that he didn't meen that Nebachadnezzer will destroy Tyre? But I don't know enough to say for sure' I don't know if some scholars think bits were added to it later. One thing I think you have to think though is that if somebody claimed to be psychic' but they claimed after the event had happened that they had predidcted it' but they showed you something like a diary entrance or something dated before the event' knowone would say' well you can't prove they didn't write in their diary after the event' people would say prove they write it before the event. You need to think about that. Chris

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