Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Diogenes the Cynic · 01-31-2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tachakuma

My unblemished hands became talons and there was another war in Heaven.

I love this ending. :thumbs:

Welcome to IIDB. I hope to see more of you. :wave:

Jagella · 02-01-2005, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Meela

No attack intended; speaking as a third-party observer, your position on the author's intended meaning appeared to me to be unreasonably held in light of the evidence and arguments you'd been presented.

Opinion noted. I must wonder how much more reasonable I could be. I’ve been careful to avoid logical fallacies, yet my opponents here have leveled ad hominem attacks against me as well as having poisoned the well anytime I cite a source to back up what I’m saying. Perhaps I’m not winning a popularity contest here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Meela

Where, specifically do you think he falters? For he seems to be warning the Pharisees, detailing the faults that will flay them if continued; scare tactics aside, surely you could not fault a man who is trying to show you the errors in your way so as to lead you to salvation, no?

Perhaps I can illustrate my objections to Jesus’ “warning�? here by providing an example that uses a similar example in which I replace Jesus by Saddam Hussein. Now, if Saddam tells his political enemies that he will have them executed if they continue to oppose him, can you call Saddam’s warning “love�?? Is Saddam in any way showing love to those who openly criticize his politics?

To answer your questions, Jesus “falters�? by lashing out in anger at anybody who doubts what he says, and I cannot feel loved by any person who insists—beyond reason—that I’m in error or that I need him to be “saved.�?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Meela

If he did not love his enemies, do you think he would warn them of their fate or explain why they were so fated?

I guess that if Jesus had the power to send people to an eternity of suffering, then the only loving thing to do would be to refrain from doing so. Moreover, Jesus, if he’s truly loving, should respect other people’s rights to believe what they wish and express these beliefs without enduring threats of violence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sensei Meela

But an even subtler nuance is presented, considering the doctrine that Jesus is God; where does his 'blessing of those that hate him' begin to interfere with the fairness and perfection of his divine judgement?

Simply put, a “divine judgment�? that purports to send people to an eternity in hell for nothing more than believing the wrong religious tenets is anything but fair or righteous.

Jagella

Chili · 02-01-2005, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johntheapostate

I am not questioning that the concept of hell was something that evolved over time, but The Jews must have developed some concept of the afterlife before the 1st century.

Daniel 12:2 " Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake. some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt"

So at the time that the book of Daniel was written some concept of an everlasting reward or punishment had materialized.

Could people not be forgiven for taking this preexisting concept of everlasting shame and with all the talk of fire, combining the two into the concept of hell that is common to Christianity today.

Of course the OT prophets knew about eternal damnation because they enjoyed eternal bliss.

Hell became a place on earth when Jesus opened the gates to heaven. Hell is just a name used to describe eternal torment.

Chili · 02-01-2005, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

"The worm that never dies" was sort of a poetic allusion to the infestations of maggots and worms crawling around in all those carcasses and piles of garbage. The Valley of Hinnon was not a pleasant place which is why it lent itself so easily to hellish connotations.

According to me "the worm that never dies" is the persistent urge of born again believers to be united with Christ and will give all they have in effort to transform the world around them to make this possible.

Chili · 02-01-2005, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagella

I find the idea of “eternal fires�? with nothing to burn rather silly. Be that as it may, I’ve already posted at least one passage that speaks of eternal damnation, but here’s two for your convenience:

A desire can burn in us and here the gospel is referring to a persistent desire to be united with Christ that we can feed by burning scriptures passages to appease the pain while feeding the same fire until we die nonetheless.

Quote:

As I hope you realize, an “annihilated soul�? cannot be punished or “damned.�?

Jagella

Of course it can if you realize that you live beside yourself. Our soul is wherein we, as humans, have eternal life whether we realize this or not. To annihilate our soul is a game of pretension wherein we punish only our ego in making it rise above the intuit memories of our soul.

Jagella · 02-01-2005, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tachakuma

…and Jagella you two are pretty cool. i've seen some of your other post in other forums i think you both are pretty wonderful.

My head is ready to burst!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tachakuma

It is believed that Hell is a place of torment and suffering. It is a place of eternal fire that burns your very soul. It is believed that we go to Hell to pay for our sins.

Now where in the world did you get this idea? It’s not in the New Testament according to another member, and so I’m wondering what the hell all that talk about hell in the New Testament is. I’ve been told that all those passages are mistranslated and that they only refer to ignoble burials in a garbage dump in the Valley of Hinnom. Uh—yeah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tachakuma

Okay, imagine that you are one of the blessed one in Heaven praising God. It is believed that you can look over and see the suffering souls in Hell.

Thomas Aquinas, perhaps Christendom’s most influential theologian, said that those in heaven seeing the torments of the damned will be happy doing so!

Jagella

B_Sharp · 02-01-2005, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagella

I do not remember seeing such a distinction made in the definition provided by Webster.

The Bible according to Webster.
The Bible according to Encarta.
The Word of God according to Wikipedia.

Isn't that blasphemy??

B_Sharp · 02-01-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

They reference Gehenna and eternal flames. We know from other sources, including the Talmud, that the Valley of Gehenna was envisioned as the place where sinners would tossed on judgement day. There is NOTHING in all of rabbinic literature or the Hebrew Bible which even comes close to referencing anything like an eternal hell. The Talmud explicitly denies it.

The Talmud is a poor historical source for interpretation of Christian concepts. They despised and would lie about Christianity. Just as many competitors would.

The Talmud is pro-Jewish and anti-non-Jewish as a general bias. I often wonder why Biblical Scholars continue to quote the Talmud as a historical source of Christianity??

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-01-2005, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B_Sharp

The Talmud is a poor historical source for interpretation of Christian concepts. They despised and would lie about Christianity. Just as many competitors would.

The Talmud is pro-Jewish and anti-non-Jewish as a general bias. I often wonder why Biblical Scholars continue to quote the Talmud as a historical source of Christianity??

Imagine that. A Jewish body of literature is pro-Jewish.

I wasn't citing the Talmud for interpretation of a Christian concept but for a Jewish explanation of Gehenna.

Jagella · 02-01-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B_Sharp

The Bible according to Webster.
The Bible according to Encarta.
The Word of God according to Wikipedia.

Isn't that blasphemy??

I’m not sure if it’s blasphemy, and I don’t care. As an atheist, I care about the truth. Let alleged blasphemy concern those who wish to live a life of religious fantasy.

Jagella

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