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Old 01-26-2009, 09:36 AM   #231
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I see what you mean: while this relates to the criterion of embarrassment, what you pointed out indicates that the death of Jesus was, for his original apostles, something unexpected. The death of Jesus could very well have been something that wasn't on the agenda!
That seems to be Mark's version ("the messianic secret")
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Old 01-26-2009, 10:12 AM   #232
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Not sure what you are after: Peter's mission was to the circumcised, and he was eating with Gentiles, presumably breaking the Jewish dietary law.
Right. But Paul wanted the Jews to accept full fellowship with the Gentiles. Peter was willing to go along with this, but then chickened out when some of the Jerusalem people showed up.
Chapter 2 of Acts totally contradicts the letter writer called Paul.

According to Acts 2, Peter was filled with the Holy Ghost and preached to people from all over the known world on the day of Pentecost and converted about 3000 people.

Acts 2.8-11
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And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9Par'thi-ans, and Medes, and E'lamites, and the dwellers in Mesopota'mi-a, and in Judea, and Cappado'cia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phryg'i-a, and Pamphyl'i-a, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyre'ne, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God
And Peter's gospel did not include one single word about circumcision or eating of foods.

This is Peter in Acts 2.21
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And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved
And again in Acts 2.38
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Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

And even in Acts 15.6-9
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.......Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
It is either the letter writer called Paul or the author of Acts or both are not credible.
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Old 01-26-2009, 10:33 AM   #233
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This may not have even been the issue. Ritual purity was.
Paul states specifically that it is a question of fellowship:
For before that some came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them who were of the circumcision.
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:49 PM   #234
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Paul states specifically that it is a question of fellowship:
For before that some came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them who were of the circumcision.
The quote doesn't actually support your claim or deny Hindley's.

It might be about "fellowship" (whatever you mean by that term) but, as it stands, it appears consistent with the notion that purity as the primary consideration.
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Old 01-26-2009, 02:32 PM   #235
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The quote doesn't actually support your claim or deny Hindley's.

It might be about "fellowship" (whatever you mean by that term) but, as it stands, it appears consistent with the notion that purity as the primary consideration.
What I mean by fellowship is the willingness of Jews to eat with non-Jews.
Less than a generation after Jesus' death and before the Gospels were written, the Christian movement, still basically a Jewish sect, would be divided over certain questions of Halakah. The Apostle Paul argued, for example, that Gentile believers did not need to follow the Halakha, while others—known in later times as Judaizers—insisted that new believers must convert to Judaism and accept the full burden of Halakha before being considered as members of the church. According to Acts 15:29, a compromise was worked out in which Gentiles did not have to be circumcised to join the church, but they must follow Noahide commandments such as refraining from idolatry and fornication, and following certain dietary restrictions.

This, solution, however, did not solve the problem of Jewish Christians interacting with Gentile Christians in worship and table fellowship, resulting in a heated disagreement between Paul and Peter at Antioch (Galatians 2), in which Paul accused Peter of hypocrisy for separating himself from the Gentile Christians in order to please certain "men from James." Ultimately, Christianity would reject even some of the commandments specified in Acts 15, while retaining the Ten Commandments and other aspects of early Halakha, especially with regard to moral law.

--"Halakha". New World Encyclopedia
My point is that while issues about what was eaten may have been part of the problem, we know for certain that the problem was about who was doing the eating. This was a big issue of basic cleanliness when everybody was reaching a hand into the same bowl.
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Old 01-26-2009, 06:59 PM   #236
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This wording makes it difficult to argue that the Petrine Jesus followers commonly accepted Paul`s messianic symbol - the cross - in Paul's time. It evidently was embarrassing (or threatening) even after Paul's death. In Mark's gospel, Peter is rebuked by Jesus for arguing against the preordained fate of the Messiah, and is replaced by Simon of Cyrene (a complete stranger) as the one who takes the Jesus' cross up the hill.

Jiri
I see what you mean: while this relates to the criterion of embarrassment, what you pointed out indicates that the death of Jesus was, for his original apostles, something unexpected. The death of Jesus could very well have been something that wasn't on the agenda!
I don't think it was. The cross would not have been foreseen or staged by Jesus. That's Mark applying Paul's teaching to the historical Jesus, that Paul did not want to talk about. Here is a short digest (from another post of mine) of what I believe were the two resurrectional concepts which shaped the Jesus followers' attitude to the crucifixion.

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There were two kinds of "resurrection" concepts circulating in Jesus circles at the time of Mark. One coming from the Paulines, the other from the Petrine succession.

Paul believed in the resurrection in the Phariseic sense, meaning actual revival after physical death which he imagined as the permanent acquisition of the transfigured body of Christ (2 Cr 3:18). The Petrines (and the historical Jesus, if he existed) denied such resurrection existed (1 Cr 15:12-19). Instead Jesus preached the coming of the kingdom through judgment, and initiated his following into the mysteries of the kingdom, which was to happen right here, on earth. The process of initiation was known as "raising from the dead", and the Jesus sectarian practice was probably familiar with the revivalism at Qumran which interpreted the traditions of Jonah and Hosea 6:2. As the saying "let the dead bury their dead" indicates, one kind of the "dead" were only dead metaphorically, in a cultic sense of being unrepentant spiritual deadheads. The sayings of the kingdom were to illustrate the sipritual awakeining of those who passed the test of "Jesus baptism". (And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here ! or, lo there ! for , behold the kingdom of God is within you ! Lk 17:20-21). The followers of the earthly Jesus did not care a whit about what happened after their actual, physical decease. He who conquers , says Revelation 2:11, shall not be hurt by the second death. So, Paul and the Petrine cultic Jesus following (at Corinth and elsewhere) were at loggerheads over the cornerstone of Jesus faith - whether one gets a life right here or in the after-life.

Enter Mark: he wishes to assert the Pauline resurrection in the historical setting of Jesus and his innermost circle who - still, in the second generation - deny the cross and the resurrected 2nd-time dead Jesus. So Mark creates something of Moebius strip in narration:

PART 1 - Jesus transfigures before the innermost three ("the pillars" ?). They don't get it even though they are in the presence of the transfigured Son of God. But those who read Mark - and who had a peak, NDE experience of a body dissolving in radiant light sure get it, because to them Paul defined their glorious trips and ensuing mad dances of Christ with Satan in their bodies.

PART 2 - Jesus is killed. End of story for the disciples - no belief in (Pauline) resurrection ! Women come to the tomb - a Pauline angel informs them : see Jesus of Nazareth who was crucified is not here. He has risen...go tell Peter and the disciples (who don't get such things because to them it was not given) that Jesus will meet them in Galilee (galil hagoyim - the land of Gentiles), i.e. in the Pauline church of the Dead Man's Glory ! But the women run away in fear, and tell nothing to noone.

But when Mark story gets around, the Petrines do finally get it. They say, guys if we are to compete against these wretched Paul uppity types we got to buy into the cross and all ! So they start to assert one better than Mark: Jesus did come back to show himself to Peter in flesh - sure Peter saw him first and after him the rest of the entourage ! Hey, even Paul wrote that down - see right here: 1 Corinthians 15:5 !
Jiri
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Old 01-27-2009, 08:32 AM   #237
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What I mean by fellowship is the willingness of Jews to eat with non-Jews.
Yes but do you not see that this has a rather obvious connection to Jewish notions of religious purity?

Characterizing it as about "fellowship" doesn't seem to me to negate or contradict the notion that it was about "purity".

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My point is that while issues about what was eaten may have been part of the problem, we know for certain that the problem was about who was doing the eating.
It was because of who was eating that what was being served became an issue. Your effort to somehow separate the two does not appear to have merit.

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This was a big issue of basic cleanliness when everybody was reaching a hand into the same bowl.
Why should anyone assume that to have been have been a primary consideration over the spiritual cleanliness of the participants? That really doesn't make sense in the context of such a clearly religious issue.
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