Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nay-Sayer · 01-11-2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

And yet it WAS destroyed: Israel did not exist as a nation for two thousand years. :huh:

I think an argument can be made that Israel as a nation didn't exist until 1948.

Nay-Sayer · 01-11-2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Pharoah oversaw the brutal enslaving of the Jews. This alone should show you what kind of people they were.

You ought to read some books other than the Bible. Jews were never slaves in Ancient Egypt.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-11-2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Pharoah oversaw the brutal enslaving of the Jews. This alone should show you what kind of people they were.

But you believe that God's protection of the Jews was conditional upon good behavior. How can you believe that and criticize Pharoah?

Considering the fact that God has indiscriminately killed more people with parasites alone than all of the wars in history, your mention of the relative handful of Jews who Pharoah enslaved is utterly absurd. Indiscriminate killing is good evidence of evil, amorality, or mental incompetence. Even Pharoah did not kill people indiscriminately, and he certainly did not kill people who loved him like God sometimes does. God kills babies and innocent animals even though they have never harmed him.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-11-2008, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

I have another which will prove most difficult to even reject....The prophecies concerning Israel which were written even in the days of Moses. Moses told the Jews should they ever disobey the voice of God that He would "scatter you among the people, from one end of the earth even to the other; and there you will serve other gods, which you nor your fathers have known, even wood and stone.

But what evidence do you have that the Jews would not have been scattered anyway?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

And among these nations you shall find no ease, neither shall the sole of your feet have rest: but the Lord shall give you there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind." Deut.28:64-65. "But this thing I commanded them saying, obey My voice and I will be your God, and you shall be My people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the councils and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward...For the children of Judah have done evil in My sight...Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth,and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate." Jeremiah 7 "And you have done worse than your fathers; for behold, everyone of you walks after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not listen to Me. Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that you do not know.

But many ethnic groups have been scattered, persecuted, and killed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The history of the Jews has been one of dispersion and restoration.......

What restoration? God promised to give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of ancient Canaan. Today, the Jews do not occupy ALL of the land of ancient Canaan, and there is not any historical evidence that they ever did.

If the Bible had never said anything about Jews, would you have found the partition of Palestine in 1948 to be surprising? If so, why?

storytime · 01-11-2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Hello ladies and gents, supporters and crits, my name is sugarhitman (a fusion of two names of two of my favorate boxers Tommy the Hitman Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard). There are many who have attacked the prophecies of the Bible such as those by Daniel, those about Tyre and others. From my recent debates and experiences with these people it is clear by their lackluster criticisms and attacks that they are not disproving prophecy but rejecting them ( a big difference by the way).

I have another which will prove most difficult to even reject....The prophecies concerning Israel which were written even in the days of Moses. Moses told the Jews should they ever disobey the voice of God that He would "scatter you among the people, from one end of the earth even to the other; and there you will serve other gods, which you nor your fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations you shall find no ease, neither shall the sole of your feet have rest: but the Lord shall give you there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind." Deut.28:64-65. "But this thing I commanded them saying, obey My voice and I will be your God, and you shall be My people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the councils and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward...For the children of Judah have done evil in My sight...Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth,and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate." Jeremiah 7 "And you have done worse than your fathers; for behold, everyone of you walks after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not listen to Me. Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that you do not know.

The history of the Jews has been one of dispersion and restoration, persecutions, genocidal attempts by gentiles Egypt, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the nations of Europe. But guess what the Jews have survived it all, why? because God made these promises:

Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars
for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of Hosts is His name):

"If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever."

Thus says the Lord:

"If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth
searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord

Ofcourse these things cant be done.... and neither can Israel be destroyed. "For behold, the days are coming says the Lord, that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah', says the Lord. 'And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave their fathers, and they shall posses it." Jeremiah 30. "Therefore behold the days are coming says the Lord, that they shall no longer say 'As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt', but 'As the Lord lives who brought up and lead the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I have driven them.' And they shall dwell in their own land.

Yes the existance of the nation of Israel amidst a sea of blood thirsty anti- Israeli Gentile nations proves that God exists. Even now all nations seeks to uproot the Jews from that little land they hold to give it to the Arabs who seek nothing but their total demise....They will not susceed.:wave:

But what if they do succeed? Do you think a nuclear war could not destroy Israel? Not to mention the Palestinians and probably Egypt and Syria.

Jews have always lived in the world. Their problems arise from the Christian interpretation of the bible story, imo.

Christians such as Hagee keep the turmoil for Israel going in their "prophecies" of doom and gloom.

You do realize that Hagee and many other Christian preachers are waiting for Jesus to kill all the Jews in Israel, don't you? Else why their preaching "that no one comes to the father but by me"? And all who don't accept Jesus as Lord and God will be exterminated when Jesus returns to Mt.Zion.

I've always been amazed that Israel allows Hagee and the others like him into their country. But I suppose they don't believe what these preachers say and their intended take-over of ALL Israel.

sugarhitman · 01-12-2008, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Hi guys, i'm baaaaaccccck

Will you be answering questions this time? You failed to do so last time around.

Everyone saw your response. Unfortunately it wasn't an answer to a question that anybody was asking.

So once again: explain how this was not a conditional promise, when apparently the Israelites lost parts of the land based upon their behavior (i.e., they failed to satisfy a condition).

Quote:

But I will once again repeat why Israel was not able to recieve all the promise.

Which refutes your claim that it was an unconditional land promise.

Israel will eventually get all the land. The remnant of Israel are those Jews who will accept the True Messiah Jesus Christ, the true children of the promise. Israel will go through one last disaster during the time of the False Messiah....The Anti-Christ. Many Jews will awake during this time, and realize that Jesus was indeed the True Messiah...Revelations says 144,000 Jewish witnesses of Jesus will arise during this time. When the Anti-Christ (the Beast) gloves come off many Jews will realize that they (and the world) has made a BIG mistake about rejecting the True Messiah....Jesus of Nazereth. :wave:

sugarhitman · 01-12-2008, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martini

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

I think you are confused about what makes up a "self-fulfilling prophecy" a self-fulfilling prophecy is one in which you control or direct it.

uh, like JEWISH leaders in Britain convincing CHRISTIAN leaders to cut out some land for this "restored" Israel? yep, sounds exactly like that. they had DIRECT CONTROL which was your criteria, correct? CHRISTIAN Brits wanting they favorite CHRISTIAN prophecy to be fulfilled sounds an AWFUL lot like a self-fulfilling prophecy. perhaps YOU are confused?

so say my grandfather once said that one day his progeny would go to college. decades later, he was right! that is hardly prophetic or supernatural.

the point is that once this "prophecy" was noted and known, ANYONE can begin the events necessary to fulfill that prophecy. it is BY THEIR OWN WORKS that these events came to pass.

further, there is NOTHING supernatural about an ethnic group of people getting land together to form a country. we see it happen from time to time WITHOUT some sort of supernatural gobbledy-gook.

IT WAS GIVEN TO THEM by the Brits. please proffer up some evidence for your claim that they had no control over these events or had to fight to get this Balfour Declaration passed. Britain was and is a Christian country. they had every reason to want their myths to come true as much as the Jews did. this is exhibited by their very actions of signing the Declaration!

please offer evidence of this, as well. there WAS no "Israel" before the Brits GAVE THEM this land. i hope that much is clear.

Quote:

This is not the same as "saving money to buy a car" (unless there are hostile forces with machine guns and tanks to prevent you from reaching a used car lot, you should not use this as a comparasin.) this is not a self-fulfilling prophecy, because Israel could have easily lost the war of independence as well as the other wars. DIVINE PROPHECY. :wave:

if they did not have powerful CHRISTIAN allies, i might have agreed with you.

. .

Critics like to tell us that Israel was setup to prove bible prophecy by Britain and other Christains allies. What a stupid arguement. The fact is yes Britian and other countries drew Plans for a restored Israel after they would not allow the Jews safe refuge sending them back to Germany to be slaughtered (many countries turned those ships filled with fleeing Jews including America back to Germany...so much for so-called christains friendship with the Jews). How would these countries have looked if they would deny the Jews their right to land sending them back to those countries where they were oppressed, after they established the U.N. that disguised itself as an peaceful organization? They are not that stupid. The Jews did indeed fight with both the Brits and the Arabs for that land read a book. Every since Israel proclaimed statehood All nations have been trying to diminish their territory, all ( well most of them) nations have vehemently condemned them especially Britain. This argument that these countries setup Israel to support prophecy, is not only stupid but false. How can you support something and hate it too? Will you tell me that the wars over this land, and the condemnation of Israel by the world are all done to support the Bible? At the same time the bible is being attacked by these same Global Government pushers in their home countries? Which one is it do they hate or love the Bible? All one needs to do is look at the way they attack the bible, Christianity (i'm talking about biblical Christianity, not Apostate Christianity which they do love) in their countries to see that they hate the bible and everything in it. Doesnt add up doesnt make sense. The truth is What God has fortold, will come to pass....You can bet that, you surely can. :wave:

Random Evil Guy · 01-12-2008, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Israel will eventually get all the land. The remnant of Israel are those Jews who will accept the True Messiah Jesus Christ, the true children of the promise.

so you admit defeat? the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled at this moment.

Jedi Mind Trick · 01-12-2008, 07:15 AM

Sugar, why don't you answer my question about the Jews who died in the holocaust?

Johnny Skeptic · 01-12-2008, 07:54 AM

Message to sugarhitman: What about Jewish history AFTER Jesus supposedly rose from the dead? Was God still protecting the Jews conditional upon good behavior? If so, what kinds of good behavior? For instance, what about the Jewish Old Testament practice of putting people to death for working on the Sabbath Day? After Jesus supposedly rose from the dead, Jews would still have been bound by Old Testament law. So, after Jesus supposedly rose from the dead, did God consider it to be good behavior when Jews still killed their own people for working on the Sabbath Day?

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01-12-2008, 07:15 AM	#129
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Sugar, why don't you answer my question about the Jews who died in the holocaust?

01-12-2008, 07:54 AM	#130
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to sugarhitman: What about Jewish history AFTER Jesus supposedly rose from the dead? Was God still protecting the Jews conditional upon good behavior? If so, what kinds of good behavior? For instance, what about the Jewish Old Testament practice of putting people to death for working on the Sabbath Day? After Jesus supposedly rose from the dead, Jews would still have been bound by Old Testament law. So, after Jesus supposedly rose from the dead, did God consider it to be good behavior when Jews still killed their own people for working on the Sabbath Day?

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