Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 12-21-2007, 03:04 PM

An LA Times columnist, Joel Stein, has written a humorous column about a quote of his that made it to a Starbucks cup about heaven. While the column is generally not serious, there is one point that might deserve discussion, involving the thoughts of Randy C. Alcorn. author of "Heaven (or via: amazon.co.uk)":

Quote:

"...The Christian church has communicated an extremely boring view of heaven. I think it's wrongheaded and flat unbiblical."

The clouds-and-harp version came about for two reasons, Alcorn told me. One is Satan. The other is the early church fathers who tried to blend the Bible with Greek philosophy and wound up with a Platonic version of the afterlife stripped of the physical. In the heaven in Alcorn's book, he imagines we'll be riding on the backs of brontosauruses and throwing baseballs with Andy Pettitte. This does not sound like it will be heaven for brontosauruses or Andy Pettitte.

But that's actually the heaven on Earth that only gets going after the return of Christ. Until then, our souls are hanging out in intermediate heaven -- a place a lot less physical and awesome -- and much of our time is spent watching events on Earth. . . .

It does seem that the concept of heaven in the Bible is rather confused, at best. Jesus seems to be oriented towards some sort of establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, after his second coming, when the dead awaken.

Your thoughts? Is any of this coherent? William Lane Craig feels that heaven must be located in some 4th quantum dimension, since it can't be in outer space.

GakuseiDon · 12-21-2007, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It does seem that the concept of heaven in the Bible is rather confused, at best. Jesus seems to be oriented towards some sort of establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, after his second coming, when the dead awaken.

Your thoughts? Is any of this coherent? William Lane Craig feels that heaven must be located in some 4th quantum dimension, since it can't be in outer space.

Did Craig really say that? Interesting! I thought the standard conservative view was that when we die, we sleep. We don't float around anywhere. Then there is a last judgement, Death and Hell are cast into the fire along with the unworthy ("the second death"), finally the boundaries between heaven and earth are removed, and God comes to the New Earth, and everyone parties. The Book of Revelation sums it up pretty well:

Rev 20:

"11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them...
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people."

It's interesting that the sea gives up the dead in it, AND ALSO Death and Hades give up the dead in them. Then there is no more (first) heaven, no more (first) earth, and no more sea.

It seems clear that this new heaven would be established on the new earth. I'm not sure when the idea came into Christianity that we would become spirits floating around waiting for the last judgement, or remained spirits after the last judgement occurred.

-Jay- · 12-21-2007, 03:45 PM

I've got an A Beka high school-level Bible Doctrines text in my library. It's got some...intriguing...perspectives on Heaven. I'll dig it out and post some excerpts later this evening if I get a chance.

(ObExplain - A Beka Books are one of the big Fundamentalist Christian school/homeschool curriculums on the market. They're slightly more liberal than Bob Jones. Reading them is, frankly, a surreal experience.)

regards,

NinJay

mountainman · 12-21-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Your thoughts? Is any of this coherent? William Lane Craig feels that heaven must be located in some 4th quantum dimension, since it can't be in outer space.

What about inner space?

Lithargoel describes the pearl of wisdom
(Matthew's 'kingdom of heaven parable)
as being located inside the city of Nine Gates.
(NHC 6.1)

This is the human body.
The embodied soul.
The human condition.
Shared by all life.

The path towards the
citizenship of one's own body
requires some ascetic practices,
meditation and objectivity.

Lithargoel says:
"The tenth gate is the mind".

Is life boring?
Dont worry!
It wont last.

Be happy.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

whichphilosophy · 12-21-2007, 08:24 PM

Heaven, a life without sin and nothing to tell others about what happened.
Must be extremely boring

purple_kathryn · 12-22-2007, 02:58 AM

For all fricken eternity

Tigers! · 12-22-2007, 03:36 AM

I could imagine how a place with no war, fear, anger, death, sickness, crying, pain etc: could be considered boring.

As Toto's quote mentioned the popular view of heaven (harps and all) is not biblical.

Why boring? The inhabitants will be busy. There will fruit to harvest (vines and figs as least), wolves and lambs to pat. There will be distinct groupings of people. You will have your own dwelling (John 14:1-4)
Rev 21:
²⁴The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. ²⁵On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. ²⁶The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

The new Jerusalem will be beautiful Rev 21:15-21;

Chili · 12-22-2007, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_kathryn

For all fricken eternity

Eternity is a state of mind wherein the future does not exist so now your 'fricken' projection for things to come tells us something about your past, which is probably based on the Utilitarian principle wherein pleasure is sought to avoid pain.

xaxxat · 12-22-2007, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigers!

I could imagine how a place with no war, fear, anger, death, sickness, crying, pain etc: could be considered boring.

As Toto's quote mentioned the popular view of heaven (harps and all) is not biblical.

Why boring? The inhabitants will be busy. There will fruit to harvest (vines and figs as least), wolves and lambs to pat. There will be distinct groupings of people. You will have your own dwelling (John 14:1-4)
Rev 21:
²⁴The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. ²⁵On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. ²⁶The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

The new Jerusalem will be beautiful Rev 21:15-21;

Don't forget about being able to watch all the sinners burn hell for eternity. What fun that will be...

Lugubert · 12-22-2007, 09:00 AM

Not only boring, but the theory is confusing. The inhabitants won't be themselves, which was indirectly explained already in GMatthew 22 on the question who would be married to whom among remarried widows and widowers. In what shape would those who died in old age from painful diseases or as infants be? Would the dwellers be able to acquire new knowledge and experience, or would they just be never changing happy drugged down zombies? Any detailed interpretation will run into contradictions.

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12-21-2007, 03:45 PM	#3
-Jay- Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Eastern U.S. Posts: 4,157	I've got an A Beka high school-level Bible Doctrines text in my library. It's got some...intriguing...perspectives on Heaven. I'll dig it out and post some excerpts later this evening if I get a chance. (ObExplain - A Beka Books are one of the big Fundamentalist Christian school/homeschool curriculums on the market. They're slightly more liberal than Bob Jones. Reading them is, frankly, a surreal experience.) regards, NinJay

12-21-2007, 08:24 PM	#5
whichphilosophy Contributor Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Abu Dhabi Europe and Philippines Posts: 11,254	Heaven, a life without sin and nothing to tell others about what happened. Must be extremely boring

12-22-2007, 02:58 AM	#6
purple_kathryn Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 3,382	For all fricken eternity

12-22-2007, 03:36 AM	#7
Tigers! Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: On the wing, waiting for a kick Posts: 2,558	I could imagine how a place with no war, fear, anger, death, sickness, crying, pain etc: could be considered boring. As Toto's quote mentioned the popular view of heaven (harps and all) is not biblical. Why boring? The inhabitants will be busy. There will fruit to harvest (vines and figs as least), wolves and lambs to pat. There will be distinct groupings of people. You will have your own dwelling (John 14:1-4) Rev 21: ²⁴The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. ²⁵On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. ²⁶The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. The new Jerusalem will be beautiful Rev 21:15-21;

12-22-2007, 09:00 AM	#10
Lugubert Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Western Sweden Posts: 3,684	Not only boring, but the theory is confusing. The inhabitants won't be themselves, which was indirectly explained already in GMatthew 22 on the question who would be married to whom among remarried widows and widowers. In what shape would those who died in old age from painful diseases or as infants be? Would the dwellers be able to acquire new knowledge and experience, or would they just be never changing happy drugged down zombies? Any detailed interpretation will run into contradictions.

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