Freethought & Rationalism Archive

3DJay · 04-02-2007, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by figuer

It is long since I read the Eddas, so I don't remember with clarity the particulars of the different myths. What I meant was that the "psychology", the attitude, reminded me of Loki the "trickster". Wether the actions of Loki were directed at the other gods or humans is not relevant in this aspect.

Or, maybe... Raven (mythology): "he is often depicted as a trickster or culture hero figure, or even as the creator of human beings"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Genocide is a modern concept. Before modern history, it wasn't considered "bad" to wipe out an entire enemy race. You're imposing your modern biases on what the ancients would have considered.

God is unchanging. It was always a genocide, to wipe out the entire human race...except for one family.

Peace

Chris Weimer · 04-02-2007, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DJay

God is unchanging.

Do you think the "Bible" backs you up on this?

Larsguy47 · 04-03-2007, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

That Larsguy varies in some details of minutiae from the "official" JW stance does not entail that he is not a practicing promoter of the "Jehovah's Witness" agenda and cause.
But let's allow Larsguy to answer this charge for himself.

Am I a JW? That's complex. The best I can tell you is that I'd be considered one by outsiders but not by insiders. I'd describe my position now as opposed to the institutional leadership but in agreement with them doctrinally more than any other large organized group. I like the people but can't stand the organization. But I like their online modern-English Bible so "Jehovah" creeps into my posts when I forget to change it to "YHWH" or "Yaweh." Being too lazy or rushed thus got me caught this time!

Quote:

Larsguy, in this paragraph of your composition, that was quoted by me,

Were these "Jehovah's witnesses" you are referring to composed of members of that well known religious sect identified as the "Jehovah's Witnesses" ?
Or some other group outside of the well known "Jehovah's Witness's" organization? If so, then whom?

Note that JWs specifically were given concentration camp identification with the "Purple Triangle" as Jews were given the "Yellow Star." So they specifically as a group were targeted. I do relate that to fulfilling technical aspects of the prophesy of Gog of Magog attacking "Israel" though the primary focus was on the Jews, obviously. The two, together are considered "God's house" in strict religious application, per my interpretation.

Quote:

And to clear up whether I have misidentified your allegiance, Are you, or have you in the past, been a member of that well known religious organization that commonly operates under, and is commonly known by name as the "Jehovah's Witnesses" ?

Yes. I was raised as a JW but am now opposed to them and consider the organization as fulfilling the "false prophet" reference in Revelation, the "Lamb Dragon" beast that comes out of the earth. I'm sort of like that employee who gets fired who then sets out to expose and embarrass the company, without necessarily disagreeing with some of the company philosophies.

So it's a conumdrum if you're looking from the outside. I do believe they were prophesied about and fulfill many references in the gospels but not all those references are complimentary. To an otusider that level of validation would label me a JW. But to the organization I'm considered "an apostate," a former member who is opposed.

Sorry about not answering this earlier!!! Hope that was enough "useless" information, right?

LG47

Larsguy47 · 04-03-2007, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

The problem is Virginia, that the claim that 2/3rds of worlds Jews were annihilated during the Holocaust, or 1940-47 is entirely bogus, was NOT fulfilled, and has no real basis in any reality.
Yes, the "Final Solution" did claim a lot of Jewish victims, however, the oft touted "6 million" claim is like many other urban "statistics", a wildly inflated figure.
The words Jewish population has been estimated to have been somewhere in the range of from 15 to 18 million in 1939, even if the "6 million" claim is accepted at face value, it still comes far short of being anywhere near to 2/3rds of the Jews.

Certain "Christians" such as Larsguy in this thread, like to glom unto that bogus inflated urban legend statistic, and use the credibility of the uninformed public to further spread their line of lying B.S.
The worlds remaining Jewish population, in seeking sympathy from a largely "Christian" world for the plight that was suffered by a large segment of their population, understandably has not been overly vocal in downplaying the inflated figures that these "Christians" have been hijacking to support their distorted 'interpretations" of prophecy and of history.

Holocaust Statistics

LG47

Larsguy47 · 04-03-2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

A straight forward question, to determine if that which "quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and appears to be a duck." Is indeed, a duck.

Yes, but are you an orinthologist? That's the real question.

LG47

Larsguy47 · 04-03-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

"You haven't seen nothing yet!", For The Tribulation that is -yet- to come, shall be upon ALL flesh, ALL of mankind, even the whole earth.

And that time will make that old Holocaust appear as a small backyard bar-ba-cue in retrospect.

Sorry, it is a bit confusing. There are TWO "great tribulations". One that happens before the second coming (the HOLOCAUST) and one that happens afterwards at the time of Armageddon:

Matthew 24:29 "29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

See, the sign of the son of man appears when the messiah arrives. This is not the same time as Armageddon. When Christ arrives Satan is kicked out of heaven and down to the earth, then there is an interval of time when Satan is on the earth before Christ's millennial reign starts.

This particular "great tribulation" is a local event and refers to the Holocaust. Think about it. People are told to "flee to the mountains" and women with children were more vulnerable than those without. Does that sound like Armageddon? No. But it does refer to the fact that some people did flee to the mountains to get away from the Nazis. But that was a difficult thing if you were a mother with young children. You'd have to either abandon the children to their death in the gas chambers or being burned alive in the death camps or just accept your fate and go with them to their death. Dying with dignity is one thing. Seeing some incredibly stupid people like the Nazis kill your children must have been undescribable.

But at any rate, if you want to discuss religious aspects of the prophesied "great tribulation" maybe we should start another thread, though I don't think the atheists here are going to jump in. My prophetic references were related to CHRONOLOGY and the chronology put forth as evidence of Biblical credibility. Future, nonfulfilled events wouldn't serve that reference.

Anyway, with respect to the second "great tribulation", I associate that with when Christ tells the four angels of heaven to let loose the four winds and the end of the world comes, but that is after he has sealed the last saint into his place in heaven. What Christ and the angels do after his return is specifically that, among other things, which is gathers and seals the saints into the kingdom.

Quote:

Rev. 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads

.”

So Christ must seal the 144,000 natural Jews first, 12,000 from each tribe, who make up 10% of the total sealed, which is 1,440,000. When the last member is sealed then presumably the end of the known world will occur, that is what many call "Armageddon" and that will be the second "great tribulation."

Rev 7:14 makes only this reference:

Quote:

9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! The blessing and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength [be] to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So basically the "great tribulation" of Revelation is Armageddon that destroys the world and the "great crowd" that no man can number are the survivors chosen to live through to Christ's millennial reign, apart from the 1,440,000 sealed ones who become king-priests to the "great crowd" who survive.

Anyway, that's all the commenting I'll do on the "great tribulation" for this thread, since it's purely doctrinal and interpretation and a future event.

Thanks for your comment!

LG47

Toto · 04-03-2007, 11:41 AM

I have split this out

Red Dave v. Nazaroo on who is a Jew, who is a racist

and delivered it to the tender hands of the PD mods.

I will reopen this thread, but I am tempted to ship it off to E for lack of serious (non-crackpot) content, but will give it one more chance.

3DJay · 04-03-2007, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Do you think the "Bible" backs you up on this?

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."

Peace

Chris Weimer · 04-03-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3DJay

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."

A single quote from a single author is supposed to be representative of the entire Biblical corpus?

figuer · 04-03-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

A single quote from a single author is supposed to be representative of the entire Biblical corpus?

Since the "entire Biblical corpus" is quite a self-contradictory collection of writings, it is pointless to try to find within it an idea that can be taken as "representative".

You asked for a Biblical "back up", and it was given. What more do you want?

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04-03-2007, 11:41 AM	#87
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I have split this out Red Dave v. Nazaroo on who is a Jew, who is a racist and delivered it to the tender hands of the PD mods. I will reopen this thread, but I am tempted to ship it off to E for lack of serious (non-crackpot) content, but will give it one more chance.

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