Freethought & Rationalism Archive

chimaira · 06-03-2004, 05:30 PM

was good evening, here there a reference in the Bible or the sacrifice of a virgin girl was required by yahvé, know this reference?

thank you all for information !!!

dado · 06-03-2004, 05:34 PM

there is no such story. closest i can come up with is a story about a man who sacrificed his daughter because he promised G-d he would - but nowhere in the story does G-d tell him to do so i don't know if that's good enough for you.

chimaira · 06-03-2004, 05:49 PM

thank you for response, thus if in the Bible it is made a sacrifice of a virgin girl it is that with a momnt Yahv� approved its?

Numbers ch 31:31-36?

Toto · 06-03-2004, 06:35 PM

Are you thinking of Jephthah?

Quote:

Jephthah Burns His Daughter

"At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."

"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)

Numbers 31:

Quote:

Dividing the Spoils
25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep,
33 72,000 cattle,
34 61,000 donkeys
35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.
36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:

337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;
38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;
39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;
40 16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32.

It does sound like it could be a human sacrifice, but I suppose they could have just be given to the Tabernacle as slaves?

Amaleq13 · 06-04-2004, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dado

...but nowhere in the story does G-d tell him to do so i don't know if that's good enough for you.

The fact that God is never portrayed as informing Jephthah that human sacrifice is forbidden is as problematic for those arguing against this practice's existence in early Judaism as the fact that Jephthah is unapologetically portrayed as assuming it was accepted. The fact that he apparently went through with it without any punishment from God provides the final nail in their position's coffin.

dado · 06-04-2004, 08:13 AM

if you are arguing from the perspective that G-d is supposed to intervene everytime a human is about to do something idiotic, then you have a point - but that is not a conception of G-d compatible with Judaism. further, Judges isn't a collection of stories showing what to do, it is a collection of cautionary tales on what not to do - more or less the antithesis of Joshua's "we prosper because we're good" message.

a more compatible view...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

The fact that God is never portrayed as informing Jephthah that human sacrifice is forbidden

that was taken care of in the story of Abraham and Isaac - which is precisely about G-d not wanting human sacrifice. no Hebe would have been justified in claiming ignorance of that story.

Quote:

Jephthah is unapologetically portrayed as assuming it was accepted.

sure. and Jephthah was wrong. which is the point of the story - to show wrong behavior, not right behavior.

Quote:

The fact that he apparently went through with it without any punishment from God provides the final nail in their position's coffin.

but he was punished. only part of the story is in "the" bible. both he and the high priest who allowed this horror to happen under his watch suffered severe consequences.

dado · 06-04-2004, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

... I suppose they could have just be given to the Tabernacle as slaves?

slaves seems the more likely path...

Numbers 31:17-18

Quote:

So now,
kill every male among the little-ones,
and every woman who has known a man by laying with a male,
kill as well!
But all the younger-ones among the women who have not known
lying with a male -
you may keep them alive for yourselves.

TySixtus · 06-04-2004, 08:41 AM

I suppose if you want to take a fundy standpoint, God does approve of human sacrifice. Isn't Jesus' death 'blood atonement' for our sin? So often we hear 'Jesus died for your sins!'. So, God accepted the blood-geld of his own son to mitigate his own wrath.

Ty

Dust · 06-04-2004, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TySixtus

I suppose if you want to take a fundy standpoint, God does approve of human sacrifice. Isn't Jesus' death 'blood atonement' for our sin? So often we hear 'Jesus died for your sins!'. So, God accepted the blood-geld of his own son to mitigate his own wrath.

Ty

Wow, thats true. I wonder what an apologist, or others have to say about that.

TySixtus · 06-04-2004, 11:15 AM

What is there to say? God let his own son be murdered, (or, if you believe the Trinity, he let himself be murdered) to appease himself. But, that wasn't enough, because you can still go to hell if you're bad. So, that killing (the killing of a half-deity, no less, which strikes me as 'worse') really didn't do anything at all.

Ty

06-03-2004, 05:30 PM	#1
chimaira Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: France Posts: 169	Sacrifice was good evening, here there a reference in the Bible or the sacrifice of a virgin girl was required by yahvé, know this reference? thank you all for information !!!

06-03-2004, 05:49 PM	#3
chimaira Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: France Posts: 169	hello thank you for response, thus if in the Bible it is made a sacrifice of a virgin girl it is that with a momnt Yahv� approved its? Numbers ch 31:31-36?

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06-03-2004, 05:34 PM	#2
dado Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 839	there is no such story. closest i can come up with is a story about a man who sacrificed his daughter because he promised G-d he would - but nowhere in the story does G-d tell him to do so i don't know if that's good enough for you.

06-04-2004, 08:41 AM	#8
TySixtus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Rachacha NY Posts: 4,219	I suppose if you want to take a fundy standpoint, God does approve of human sacrifice. Isn't Jesus' death 'blood atonement' for our sin? So often we hear 'Jesus died for your sins!'. So, God accepted the blood-geld of his own son to mitigate his own wrath. Ty

06-04-2004, 11:15 AM	#10
TySixtus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Rachacha NY Posts: 4,219	What is there to say? God let his own son be murdered, (or, if you believe the Trinity, he let himself be murdered) to appease himself. But, that wasn't enough, because you can still go to hell if you're bad. So, that killing (the killing of a half-deity, no less, which strikes me as 'worse') really didn't do anything at all. Ty

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