aa5874

But your post #181 clearly shows that you were in fact implying that the following was like that of disiples. And further you did not make any reference to any negative following.

gstafleu

So "follow" does not necessarily mean in a religious-convert manner, right? Now if Mom was following him (more or less neutrally), wouldn't it than be natural that she, being a Mom after all, would minister to Jesus?

Gerard Stafleu

Ben C Smith

It can be used neutrally.

How would that be neutral? (And keep in mind that whatever is going on in Mark 3 is negative, not even neutral.)

Do you not see a tension between mom tracking her son down in Mark 3 to reel him in and mom following her son and ministering to him?

Ben.

Ben C Smith

Correct. The following in 15.47 is positive, just like that of a disciple. It is not negative, like that of a stalker or someone trying to contain him.

Correct. Nor do I yet think the following in Mark 15.47 is negative, whereas what is going on in chapter 3 is clearly negative.

Ben.

gstafleu

Sure there is a tension. But aren't mothers known for ministering to their children, regardless of their thinking that said children are behaving like total idiots?

Gerard

aa5874

But, you were NEVER dealing with NEGATIVE following in the first place. Tagging along has nothing whatsoever to do with stalking or trying to contain Jesus.

Your concern was with the level of following, that is, whether they were simply tagging along or following like disciples.

Ben C Smith

Perhaps, but here she is doing it alongside other women; what is their motive, do you suppose? IOW, this Mary is not doing this alone; she is part of a contingent of women all doing the same thing. Why is that?

The word for following used here also appears in Mark 1.18; 2.14-15; 3.7; 5.24; 6.1; 8.34; 9.38; 10.21, 28, 32, 52; and 11.9 in terms of either the disciples or the crowds following Jesus in a positive sense, as part of his entourage. (In 14.13 and 15.41 the word is used in a somewhat more neutral sense, perhaps; it is never used in a negative sense.) Liddell and Scott even give obey or be guided by (!) as one sense of this word, and follower, attendant, or even agreeing with as senses for the substantive adjective formed from it. The word is frequently used of soldiers following their captain, or of slaves following their master.

I just do not think it is the word to use to imply that this Mary (and the other women?) is trying to keep him in check. It stands in contrast with chapter 3, not in harmony with it.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

That is incorrect. I was originally distinguishing the sort of following a disciple would do (positive) from the sort of following a stalker would do (negative). (I used terms like reel him in.)

I added the bit about not just tagging along later. And it is true that the women are not just tagging along; they are ministering to Jesus.

Ben.

gstafleu

The other women may have been followers in the convert sense. But Mom just joined up with them. Isn't it natural she would seek out the company of other women, whether she was a convert or just concerned about her son?

The main sense they give is "follow one, go after or with him." This fits well with Mom being concerned and going after him to take care of him.
Yes, it does, But for a mother that is hardly unusual. Also there is no reason to assume that Mom must have had the same motivation as the "other women." How often do mothers have the same motivation as "other women" who go after their sons?

Gerard

Ben C Smith

If that floats your boat, run with it. I personally think it is no better or worse than what harmonists do with the texts.

Ben.