Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Malachi151 · 11-21-2006, 08:02 AM

http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/summary.html

First, forgive me if this has already been discussed. I searched the archives and didn't find anything.

I think that Atwill makes a lot of unsupported claims here and that his overall idea is bogus, but I have a question about something.

Quote:

Each of these peculiar events has a parallel in the writings of Josephus, our main record of the military encounter between the Judeans and their Roman conquerors-even to the unusual crucifixion in which three men are crucified, and a man named Joseph takes one, who survives, down. To give a flavor of the humor buried in this grand Roman joke, we see that where, in Josephus, the crucifixions take place at Thecoe, which translates as the "Village of the Inquiring Mind," the gospel's satiric version takes place at Golgotha, or the "Hill of the Empty Skull."

Events at the Lake of Galilee launch the Judean careers of both Titus and Jesus. There Jesus called his disciples to be 'fishers of men'. There the Roman battle took place in which Titus attacked a band of Jewish rebels led by a leader named Jesus. The rebels fell into the water and those who were not killed by darts "attempted to swim to their enemies, the Romans cut off either their heads or their hands" (Jewish War III, 10). Men were indeed pulled out of the water like fish.

As for the episode of the Gadarene swine-in which demons leave a Gadara demoniac at Jesus' bidding and then enter into a herd of 2,000 swine, which rush wildly into the lake and drown-Josephus recounts the Roman campaign in which Vespasian marched against Gadara. In the same way that the demons were concentrated in one demoniac, Josephus describes the faults of all the rebels being concentrated in the one head of the rebel leader John. Then, rushing about "like the wildest of wild beasts," the 2000 rebels rushed over the cliff and drowned.

To take a third example, Josephus describes how Titus went out without his armor (and therefore to a soldier metaphorically naked) in the garden of Gethsemane, was nearly caught and had to flee. The parallel in the gospel of Mark is a naked young man who appears from nowhere in the Garden of Gethsemane and flees.

So far over dozen of these parallels have been identified -many of which had already been discovered by other scholars. But Atwill is the first researcher to have identified the overall pattern. The pattern in each case is the same. This fulfills the criterion for 'good' parallels set out by James R. Davila in his paper 'The Perils of Parallels', University of St Andrews Divinity School, (April 2001), which states that "patterns of parallels are more important than individual parallels" and "the larger and more complex the pattern of parallels, the more we should take them seriously."

What truth is there to this?

gstafleu · 11-21-2006, 08:53 AM

By "what truth" you mean if Jospehus says something like that, or if it is a valid comparison? I just had a quick look at the onle reference in the quote, War 3.10, par 9 seems to be the relevant one:

9. But now, when the vessels were gotten ready, Vespasian put upon ship-board as many of his forces as he thought sufficient to be too hard for those that were upon the lake, and set sail after them. Now these which were driven into the lake could neither fly to the land, where all was in their enemies' hand, and in war against them; nor could they fight upon the level by sea, for their ships were small and fitted only for piracy; they were too weak to fight with Vespasian's vessels, and the mariners that were in them were so few, that they were afraid to come near the Romans, who attacked them in great numbers. However, as they sailed round about the vessels, and sometimes as they came near them, they threw stones at the Romans when they were a good way off, or came closer and fought them; yet did they receive the greatest harm themselves in both cases. As for the stones they threw at the Romans, they only made a sound one after another, for they threw them against such as were in their armor, while the Roman darts could reach the Jews themselves; and when they ventured to come near the Romans, they became sufferers themselves before they could do any harm to the ether, and were drowned, they and their ships together. As for those that endeavored to come to an actual fight, the Romans ran many of them through with their long poles. Sometimes the Romans leaped into their ships, with swords in their hands, and slew them; but when some of them met the vessels, the Romans caught them by the middle, and destroyed at once their ships and themselves who were taken in them. And for such as were drowning in the sea, if they lifted their heads up above the water, they were either killed by darts, or caught by the vessels; but if, in the desperate case they were in, they attempted to swim to their enemies, the Romans cut off either their heads or their hands; and indeed they were destroyed after various manners every where, till the rest being put to flight, were forced to get upon the land, while the vessels encompassed them about [on the sea]: but as many of these were repulsed when they were getting ashore, they were killed by the darts upon the lake; and the Romans leaped out of their vessels, and destroyed a great many more upon the land: one might then see the lake all bloody, and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped. And a terrible stink, and a very sad sight there was on the following days over that country; for as for the shores, they were full of shipwrecks, and of dead bodies all swelled; and as the dead bodies were inflamed by the sun, and putrefied, they corrupted the air, insomuch that the misery was not only the object of commiseration to the Jews, but to those that hated them, and had been the authors of that misery. This was the upshot of the sea-fight. The number of the slain, including those that were killed in the city before, was six thousand and five hundred.

So the scene is there, the fish are a (not unreasonable) interpretation.

Gerard Stafleu

Malachi151 · 11-21-2006, 09:35 AM

I was referring to the claimed number and pattern of these similarities.

Toto · 11-21-2006, 12:05 PM

I don't know how you searched the archives, but there has been quite a bit of discussion.

Vokosigan: Carrier on Atwill

Carotta with comparisons to Atwill

Neil Godfrey: Davies and Atwill

Copernic · 11-21-2006, 12:06 PM

Atwill describes in the Gospels about a dozen or so major events that happen sequentially and in parallel w/ Josephus' work

Start of Jesus' Ministry at Galilee (Fishers of Men) ----- Start of Titus' campaign in Galilee (Atwill describes the event in War 3.10 as fishing for men)

Jesus exorcizes legion of demons from man at Gadara/Gerasa/Gergesa. ----- Titus encounters a legion of Zealots driven by a wicked spirit )

In Jerusalem, Jesus offers his flesh and blood as a sacriment ---- During the Siege of Jerusalem, Mary eats the flesh of her son

Jesus predicts destruction of the Temple ---- Titus destroy's the Temple

(Still scratching my head at this one) Naked man escapes outside of Jerusalem ---- Titus escapes being captured while "naked" (without armor)

Jesus is capture on Mt of Olives ---- an "unnamed man" is captured on Mt of Olives (Atwill says Josephus must be referring to Eleazar - a messianic figure at the time?)

Simon denies ---- Simon denies

Three crucified and one "survives" (taken down by Joseph of Arimathea) ---- Three crucified and one survives (taken down by the author (Joseph bar Matthias))

Simon is the rock ---- Simon is found under rocks

Simon is martyred while John is spared ---- Titus sends Simon to Rome to be executed and John is spared

Well there's ten. Atwill claims that it is statistically impossible for these events to be sequenced in such a way in both the Gospels and "The Jewish War"

My take is that while linking some of the accounts may be a stretch, the similarity between the metaphorical points made in the Gospels and the historical record of Josephus should not be discounted. Particularly because of the similar sequence of events.

If nothing else, the two are linked and one can then argue as to which story inspired the other.

J

PhilosopherJay · 11-21-2006, 04:48 PM

It is simple to link a chain of events between any two narratives if the two narratives contain a sufficient amount of events. We can link King Kong and Josephus and the Gospels

Quote:

Originally Posted by Copernic

Atwill describes in the Gospels about a dozen or so major events that happen sequentially and in parallel w/ Josephus' work

Start of Jesus' Ministry at Galilee (Fishers of Men) ----- Start of Titus' campaign in Galilee (Atwill describes the event in War 3.10 as fishing for men) ---- Carl Denham fishes for a crew to take him to Kong's island and his crew fishes from his boat

Jesus exorcizes legion of demons from man at Gadara/Gerasa/Gergesa. ----- Titus encounters a legion of Zealots driven by a wicked spirit )---- Dehnam encounters a legion of native warriors on Kong's island

In Jerusalem, Jesus offers his flesh and blood as a sacriment ---- During the Siege of Jerusalem, Mary eats the flesh of her son ----
The islanders offer Ann Darrow as a flesh and blood sacrifice to Kong

Jesus predicts destruction of the Temple ---- Titus destroy's the Temple ---- Kong destroys the temple of the natives

(Still scratching my head at this one) Naked man escapes outside of Jerusalem ---- Titus escapes being captured while "naked" (without armor) ---A naked boy escapes death, or trying to escape, Ann falls in the water and we see a naked breast as she emerges (a scene cut by the censor in some versions)

Jesus is capture on Mt of Olives ---- an "unnamed man" is captured on Mt of Olives (Atwill says Josephus must be referring to Eleazar - a messianic figure at the time?)------Kong is captured

Simon denies ---- Simon denies -----Denham denies that there is any danger to Ann (when he pairs them in a publicity stunt)

Three crucified and one "survives" (taken down by Joseph of Arimathea) ---- Three crucified and one survives (taken down by the author (Joseph bar Matthias))-----Kong grabs three women looking for Ann, only one survives

Simon is the rock ---- Simon is found under rocks-----Kong sees the Empire State Building and thinks it looks like a big rock or (Kong rocks an airplane)

Simon is martyred while John is spared ---- Titus sends Simon to Rome to be executed and John is spared ----Kong dies a martyr to modern man's technology, while Ann is spared

Well there's ten. Atwill claims that it is statistically impossible for these events to be sequenced in such a way in both the Gospels and "The Jewish War"

My take is that while linking some of the accounts may be a stretch, the similarity between the metaphorical points made in the Gospels and the historical record of Josephus should not be discounted. Particularly because of the similar sequence of events.

If nothing else, the two are linked and one can then argue as to which story inspired the other.

J

I am sure that Josephus was inspired to write his history after going to the movies and seeing King Kong.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Malachi151 · 11-21-2006, 05:03 PM

Yes, but how do you know that King Kong was not in fact inspired by the gospels, which were based on Josephus?

Copernic · 11-21-2006, 07:39 PM

Well they say there are only 81 major themes to choose from to make a great story. It is not a remote chance that King Kong, the writings of Josephus, and the Gospels would all fall in line so nicely.

Such parallels would be even stronger if only....

Denham were pulling his crew from a New York borough called Galilee

The Kong Island warriors were said to be inspired by a inspired by a wicked spirit amongst them...or were in fact possessed (either would do)

Ann Darrow were naked during this offering (wouldn't create any better link here but but I'd certainly pay closer attention to this narrative.

Kong builds a siege wall prior to the destruction of the city

Again with the naked Ann...still nice to imagine.

Kong captured....in a pit of olive oil.... thus strengthening the parallel

Denham denying....that's a pretty good one.

Did Kong, in fact, grab three women? I don't remember.... Image of a naked Naomi Watts clouding my memory.

No...no...no....Jack Black was in School of Rock...remember?

Yes, Kong is a martyr....no argument here.

Malachi151 · 11-22-2006, 05:22 AM

Right, but a lot of literature today IS in fact inspired by the Bible, take Superman for example, or Star Wars. Yes, you are going to see parallels, because they are intentional. Modern Western literature is heavily influenced by Biblical stories.

PhilosopherJay · 11-22-2006, 07:27 AM

Hi Malachi,

Human beings all do certain things -- get born, eat, fish for things, fight, get naked, sacrifice, die etc. In long narratives involving human beings (or creatures portrayed as similar to human beings), it is likely that these things will be done repeatedly. It is human life itself that is the master narrative that stories written by human beings follow. Since the Biblical stories too are written by human beings and about human beings, it follows that narrative also. The parallels develop out of this.

One might say that all restaurants are influenced by McDonalds because in every restaurant, we 1)walk in, 2)order, 3)receive the food, 4)sit down at tables, 5)eat it and 6)leave. But by postulating that McDonalds' influence is the cause of these parallels, we're ignoring the fact that people did the exact same things in millions of restaurants throughout the world for hundreds of years before McDonalds existed.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Right, but a lot of literature today IS in fact inspired by the Bible, take Superman for example, or Star Wars. Yes, you are going to see parallels, because they are intentional. Modern Western literature is heavily influenced by Biblical stories.

11-21-2006, 08:53 AM	#2
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	By "what truth" you mean if Jospehus says something like that, or if it is a valid comparison? I just had a quick look at the onle reference in the quote, War 3.10, par 9 seems to be the relevant one: 9. But now, when the vessels were gotten ready, Vespasian put upon ship-board as many of his forces as he thought sufficient to be too hard for those that were upon the lake, and set sail after them. Now these which were driven into the lake could neither fly to the land, where all was in their enemies' hand, and in war against them; nor could they fight upon the level by sea, for their ships were small and fitted only for piracy; they were too weak to fight with Vespasian's vessels, and the mariners that were in them were so few, that they were afraid to come near the Romans, who attacked them in great numbers. However, as they sailed round about the vessels, and sometimes as they came near them, they threw stones at the Romans when they were a good way off, or came closer and fought them; yet did they receive the greatest harm themselves in both cases. As for the stones they threw at the Romans, they only made a sound one after another, for they threw them against such as were in their armor, while the Roman darts could reach the Jews themselves; and when they ventured to come near the Romans, they became sufferers themselves before they could do any harm to the ether, and were drowned, they and their ships together. As for those that endeavored to come to an actual fight, the Romans ran many of them through with their long poles. Sometimes the Romans leaped into their ships, with swords in their hands, and slew them; but when some of them met the vessels, the Romans caught them by the middle, and destroyed at once their ships and themselves who were taken in them. And for such as were drowning in the sea, if they lifted their heads up above the water, they were either killed by darts, or caught by the vessels; but if, in the desperate case they were in, they attempted to swim to their enemies, the Romans cut off either their heads or their hands; and indeed they were destroyed after various manners every where, till the rest being put to flight, were forced to get upon the land, while the vessels encompassed them about [on the sea]: but as many of these were repulsed when they were getting ashore, they were killed by the darts upon the lake; and the Romans leaped out of their vessels, and destroyed a great many more upon the land: one might then see the lake all bloody, and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped. And a terrible stink, and a very sad sight there was on the following days over that country; for as for the shores, they were full of shipwrecks, and of dead bodies all swelled; and as the dead bodies were inflamed by the sun, and putrefied, they corrupted the air, insomuch that the misery was not only the object of commiseration to the Jews, but to those that hated them, and had been the authors of that misery. This was the upshot of the sea-fight. The number of the slain, including those that were killed in the city before, was six thousand and five hundred. So the scene is there, the fish are a (not unreasonable) interpretation. Gerard Stafleu

11-21-2006, 12:06 PM	#5
Copernic Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO, USA Posts: 446	Atwill describes in the Gospels about a dozen or so major events that happen sequentially and in parallel w/ Josephus' work Start of Jesus' Ministry at Galilee (Fishers of Men) ----- Start of Titus' campaign in Galilee (Atwill describes the event in War 3.10 as fishing for men) Jesus exorcizes legion of demons from man at Gadara/Gerasa/Gergesa. ----- Titus encounters a legion of Zealots driven by a wicked spirit ) In Jerusalem, Jesus offers his flesh and blood as a sacriment ---- During the Siege of Jerusalem, Mary eats the flesh of her son Jesus predicts destruction of the Temple ---- Titus destroy's the Temple (Still scratching my head at this one) Naked man escapes outside of Jerusalem ---- Titus escapes being captured while "naked" (without armor) Jesus is capture on Mt of Olives ---- an "unnamed man" is captured on Mt of Olives (Atwill says Josephus must be referring to Eleazar - a messianic figure at the time?) Simon denies ---- Simon denies Three crucified and one "survives" (taken down by Joseph of Arimathea) ---- Three crucified and one survives (taken down by the author (Joseph bar Matthias)) Simon is the rock ---- Simon is found under rocks Simon is martyred while John is spared ---- Titus sends Simon to Rome to be executed and John is spared Well there's ten. Atwill claims that it is statistically impossible for these events to be sequenced in such a way in both the Gospels and "The Jewish War" My take is that while linking some of the accounts may be a stretch, the similarity between the metaphorical points made in the Gospels and the historical record of Josephus should not be discounted. Particularly because of the similar sequence of events. If nothing else, the two are linked and one can then argue as to which story inspired the other. J

11-21-2006, 07:39 PM	#8
Copernic Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO, USA Posts: 446	Well they say there are only 81 major themes to choose from to make a great story. It is not a remote chance that King Kong, the writings of Josephus, and the Gospels would all fall in line so nicely. Such parallels would be even stronger if only.... Denham were pulling his crew from a New York borough called Galilee The Kong Island warriors were said to be inspired by a inspired by a wicked spirit amongst them...or were in fact possessed (either would do) Ann Darrow were naked during this offering (wouldn't create any better link here but but I'd certainly pay closer attention to this narrative. Kong builds a siege wall prior to the destruction of the city Again with the naked Ann...still nice to imagine. Kong captured....in a pit of olive oil.... thus strengthening the parallel Denham denying....that's a pretty good one. Did Kong, in fact, grab three women? I don't remember.... Image of a naked Naomi Watts clouding my memory. No...no...no....Jack Black was in School of Rock...remember? Yes, Kong is a martyr....no argument here.

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11-21-2006, 09:35 AM	#3
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I was referring to the claimed number and pattern of these similarities.

11-21-2006, 12:05 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I don't know how you searched the archives, but there has been quite a bit of discussion. Vokosigan: Carrier on Atwill Carotta with comparisons to Atwill Neil Godfrey: Davies and Atwill

11-21-2006, 05:03 PM	#7
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Yes, but how do you know that King Kong was not in fact inspired by the gospels, which were based on Josephus?

11-22-2006, 05:22 AM	#9
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Right, but a lot of literature today IS in fact inspired by the Bible, take Superman for example, or Star Wars. Yes, you are going to see parallels, because they are intentional. Modern Western literature is heavily influenced by Biblical stories.

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