tdcanam

No prollem eh! :Cheeky:

Sheshbazzar

"And it shall be our righteousness, IF we observe to DO ALL these commandments"..... (Devarim / Deuteronomy 6:25)

Psalm 14:1-4
"The fool has said in his heart, There is no Elohim.
They are corrupt, they have done abominable works,
There is NONE that does does good.
YHWH looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek Elohim.
They are ALL gone aside, they are all together became filthy: There is NONE that does good, no, NOT ONE
Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up MY people as they eat bread, and DO NOT call upon YHWH" (Tehillim / Psalms 14:1-4)

A few lines from Psalms and Deuteronomy noah, with a little commentary.
IF you observe to DO ALL of these commandments, it shall be your righteousness.
Problem is NO man has ever done "ALL" of these commandments;

You, in your earlier posts have proved by the record, that the Man from Galilee did not obey, keep or "DO" ALL of these commandments.

And I, in my earlier posts have also proved that Moshe himself did not obey, keep or "DO" ALL of these commandments; in the preventing of ALL of the millions that went into the Wilderness, and all of them born therein, for the next 40 years, from being under the Covenant of the Law, (for whoso is not circumcised in his foreskin IS outside of, and -EXEMPT- from That Covenant. (Gen.17: 9-14), an
"everlasting covenant" (v. 13) which Moshe did NOT not obey, DO, nor permit to be DONE.

It is said "Moses The Lawgiver", but Scripture bearing witness, I say to ALL, "Moses The Law Breaker", Is he that also bears witness against them under The Law, As it is written; "If you had believed him"
But on your own testimony you have not believed Moshe, nor any Scripture.
Have you not said in your heart, "There is NO Elohim"?
Have you not heard, nor understood that YHWH the Holy One of Israel has promised that HE WILL HAVE MERCY, forgive, cleanse, and pardon (-exempt-) ALL peoples out of all the nations, who believe on Him, and call upon Him?
You choose to abuse His words to condemn those that believe on Him,
yet "DO NOT CALL UPON YHWH" (Psalm 14:4)
You delight yourself in your skillful "intellectual" argument, but not in Him.
(Psalms 37:4, Proverbs 19:10)
But back to your profession that ALL must keep the Law of YHWH to be accepted of YHWH.
Your "JC" ( I say "your", because both your conception of Him, what He taught, and name for him is not mine, but yours) did not obey ALL the commandments.

Your "Moses" (I say "your", because your conception of him, and of what he taught, is yours, and not mine) DID NOT obey ALL the commandments.

Your "YHWH" (I say "your", because your conception of Him, and what He is DOING, is yours, and not mine (or my fellow believer's) is one without pity, unmerciful, unforgiving, unloving, in condemning and in cursing all who cannot read, or who are simple-minded, or who were hung (even those innocent, who were hung by the guilty) or whom, through no fault of their own, were born in the "wrong place" or to the "wrong parents" or in the "wrong circumstances".

My YHWH, says; "I will have mercy, I will forgive them their trespasses, I will cleanse them, and I will pardon their iniquities".
But you think the Law is the way? Bring forth then, that man that you think is obeying and keeping the commandments, that he may be questioned, and that the truth of such thing may be proved.
Your eye would allow only a few strict legalists to find favor with YHWH.
(we that believe are persuaded, so "few" that the number is actually "0" or "none")

I and my brethren hold that the will of YHWH is the deliverance of an innumerable and mixed multitude out of every nation, and kindred and tongue, including the mamzer and the eunuch and the illiterate, and the deaf, the blind, and the mute, the simple-minded, and the infant that perished from his mothers womb;
NOT as in those former days, when He delivered but seven, or a few hundred, or a few million, but in that Day, a mixed multitude beyond numbering (by men), gathered from all of the generations of man.

THEN, He shall teach us His ways, and we shall walk in them, NOT as formerly, nor as today, when men yet walk in the council of men, saying; "Thus says YHWH..." and man contends with man as to WHAT it is that YHWH says.

sunspark

Relative to what?

What does that mean? That the word is meaningless, equivalent to intellectual fluff? There are lots of "abstract" terms that are indeed meaningful and still mean exactly what they say: "evil", "good", "love", "hate". How does being "abstract" change things? It doesn't follow that the Old Testament constantly refers to the Law and God being righteous, and that man can be righteous, but that the exact same word doesn't really mean righteous when applied to man. I'm trying to understand exactly what you mean, because that doesn't make sense. :huh:

Actually, yes there was: Ezekiel 23:45, Amos 2:6, Amos 5:12, Habakkuk 1:4.

However, you do mean pre-Christ's resurrection, not OT, otherwise you pop off people into nothingness, in neither one "covenant" or another: Simeon (Luke 2:25), Zacharias and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), Joseph (Matthew 1:19), the other Joseph (Luke 23:50), John (Mark 6:20); all accounted as "righteous" while under Law.

The New Testament also confirms Lot's righteousness, and Lot was most certainly under Law: 2 Peter 2:7-9.

@Sheshbazzar: Swapping references again are you? :grin: At least this one is correct.

What you've illustrated here with your mercy argument, again, is that the Bible is inconsistant on precepts ("justice" versus "mercy", etc), and, again, I totally agree. None of which actually figure God doing away with the Old Testament Law that he set forth, the topic of discussion.

What figures? That you can make snarky statements? That doesn't win you your argument, that just makes people want to ignore you completely as being uncivil and unreasonable.

I did comment, you just didn't agree or perhaps overlooked it:

Sheshbazzar

Not really "swapping references" as I cited Leviticus 24:19-22 repeatedly, from the first time that I mentioned "eye for eye", I will willingly admit however, that my initially citing Deut.19:15-21 was a mistake, one that I have marked, and a mistake that I intend to carefully avoid in the future, I do not find correction grievous, but profit by it.
I never stated that YHWH "did away with His Old Testament Law that he set forth", the topic of discussion.
In fact I have repeatedly stated just the opposite;
Round and around we go, my argument IS NOT "to overthrow The Law", "by virtue of it being self-contradicting", or for any other reason,
I uphold The Law, that SIN might be evident, Sin IS the transgressing of The Law. Without The Law, sin is not evident, and we would not know sin, that it is sin, except The Law says, "Thou shalt not.."
"The Law of YHWH IS perfect, converting the soul" why would any true believer want to remove that which stands eternally for the very purpose of convicting the consciences of men, bringing about the conversion of their souls? Without The Law we would all be in darkness,and ignorance.
We do not void The Law, but uphold and establish it, that men might know that they are sinners, everyone.
The subject is, "When and where are the OT laws repealed?" and the believers answer (yet AGAIN) is, They never were repealed, and every last one, down to the very last yod is still in effect.
But we are those, who are -exempted- from, and excused from, the doing of its requirements, just as Moses and all of them whom were born in the Wilderness were -exempted- from, and excused from, obeying any of The Laws requirements regarding circumcision, and were therby outside of The Law, yet these were the ones who were delivered into The Promised Land, while their fathers who had obeyed The Law of circumcision ALL died in the way.
Disobedience to The (written) Law was rewarded with Deliverance. Obedience to The (written) Law, transgressed the Law of That Voice that spoke unto Moses and the children of the Promise, saying; "This -you- shall not DO" although it had been "written", it was countermanded by the voice of YHWH their Elohim, and by Moshe His servant, that some hearing might be saved, through hearkening unto His voice above what was written in The Law.

Jesse Leigh

G'morning!

Paul is the *Greek* form of the *Hebrew* name, "Saul." Paul's name change came about after Christ appointed him as the Apostle to the Gentiles. It is symbolic of both the change in Paul and in his Divine Commission. - Jesse.

Spincracker

Don't know if it's been said but Heb. chp. 8 is one of the most explicit proclamations on the expiration of the OT laws.

noah

What are you trying to prove by repeating this? I don't even know for sure what you mean here. It looks like you are trying to make a grade-school argument that so and so is better than someone else because they do or have x,y, or z and the someone else doesn't. I don't get it. There is no boasting in following the Law. That is forbidden. It's not a question of better. It's a question of following your God's Laws as you are commanded.

Boy. You better read through this thread. Better still, read through your bible. See Ezekiel 18:20-23, Psalm 119:105, Psalm 119:106-118, 110-115, 152-160, Mathew 5:17-20, Revelations 3:26 Revelations 22:12, Revelations 22:14 etc.

So? Your fundamental argument is flawed. You seem to be saying that you don't have to obey your God's Law because there is an instance where someone else didn't. What kind of an argument is that? Try holding up a corner store and telling the cops not to arrest you because you saw someone run a few red lights or steal a car or vandalize a public building. See how far you get.
The point you're mising is that the Jews keep th eLaw way better than you do. At least they're in the ball park. You don't even try.

Blatantly false. Your God makes it perfectly clear that anyone who obeys his Laws will be saved: Isa 56:1-7

1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant, ;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

You're forgetting that Israel is supposed to pay the role of "Light unto the gentiles" which means God's Laws are to be transmitted to all peoples.
Isaiah 49:6 declares that Israel, the steward of god's Laws will be a light unto the gentles that your God's salvation will reach the ends of the earth:
Isaiah 51:4-8:
You also have to deal with 2 Timothy 3:16 which also contradicts your idea that the whole thing is just for the Israelis. 2 Timothy 3:16 lets us know that all scripture applies to all of us:
That's New Testament my friend and what's more is we know Timothy was written before the New Testament was compiled so we know that Timothy is referring to all Old Testament teachings.
In addition, xians tell us time and again how inerrant the bible is. Well if the bible is inerrant that means that there is nothing wrong with the OT. That means the OT carries all the force and weight of the NT because there is nothing wrong with the OT. If the OT were not to apply to all of us it would be because there was something errant about it. But the bible is the inerrant perfect word of God. God's word is perfect or it is not. Your choice.

More verses telling us God's word/laws are for everyone:

Ecclesiastes 12:13 tells us that your God's Laws are for everyone:
Psalm 18:30 says the same thing:

You've also forgotten Mathew 5:17-20 where your saviour tells you to obey his commandments as the key to salvationRepetition of a point does not prove the point.

How does this prove your point? A number of problems here:
First, look at who Jesus is talking to. Jesus is making this covenant with his inner circle of disciples. There is no evidence that he is making this covenant with anyone else. It's meant for his select inner circle. It's well known that Jesus kept a tight inner circle of followers aka his disciples. He taught them what his teachings really meant and other things that he taught no one else. He deliberately obscured the Gospel so that people wouldn't be saved:
Mark 4:10-12
Secondly, JC's words on the cross mitigate against his being the sacrifice for everyone's sins. In fact they show that he was anything but. Mark 15:34:
are not the words of a world saviour but of a man who wants desperately to be anywhere else but on the cross.

Thirdly, in the Great Commission which is the name given to JC's last utterances and commands to his disciples, JC sends his disciples out on a mission to teach the gospel: Mark 16:14-18
What was the gospel? It was Jesus' teachings that salvation depended on keeping his commandments. (Mathew 5:17-20)
In Luke 24:49 Jesus last words are that he will deliver his Father's will promise to his disciples
Well, what was the promise of his father? You guessed it. His Law, specifically the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-34 ) in which Jesus makes clear that no one can die for the sins of another and that he will etch his Law onto the hearts of men.
John 20:21Since we know JC's father was all about his laws and that JC and his father are one (John 10:30) it makes sense to assume here that JC expects his disciples to teach his and his Father's commandments just as Jesus did (Mathew 5:17-20).
Fourthly, JC says he fulfills the words of the prophets (Luke 24:44). That's important because the expected messiah will usher in an era of full Torah compliance (Jeremiah 33:15, Ezek 36:27). If JC is the messiah as you say then the mission of JC and his disciples on earth is to teach your God's Laws.
He's either the expected messiah as you say he is, or he's not. You can't have it both ways.

This is a pointless citation. Paul wasn't there. He can't prove this was even said.

noah

[QUOTE=Gamera]Nobody is supposed to keep all the Law. You are only suppose to honestly try to keep God's Laws. God does not demand perfection, only effort.
You mention Romans 3:23. Well Paul is wrong here (again). Romans 3:23 is just another example of how unbiblical Paul's theology really was. It's funny. Even you, an adamant defender of Paul, has to admit that Paul is wrong here.
There are plenty of examples of people keeping God's Laws as he expects them to. Zacharias and Elizabeth Luke (1:5-6). Job is described as perfect and upright (1:1 and 2:3) . That means he obeyed God's Laws. Lot is described as righteous (2 Peter 2:7-8). You mentioned Noah's righteousness in Genesis. Noah is also described as a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5). In addition, there are numerous references to "the righteous" and "righteous men", for example James 5:16, Mathew 9:13 and Mathew 13:17
If Paul is wrong here why do you think he's right elsewhere?

What? The term righteousness mean you obey God's Laws as Deuteronomy 6:25 makes clear:

This verse itself disproves your idea that no one is righteous. If righteousness were impossible to attain why would Habbakuk even mention it here?
What is your point here anyway? You just got through telling me no one was righteous. Now you're telling me the righteous shall live by his faith. Which is it? No one is righteous or some are righteous. You can't have both.

noah

What on earth does this have to do with anything? Isa 48 is a speech about the stubbornness of Israel and how that stubbornness is part of God's plan to use Israel as a vehicle to reveal God's power to the world.
Next question.


Uh Yeah. First of all does this say all of JC's other commandments are cancelled? NO.
Second, of course you have to make these two your priority. This is an ethics based religion. What is the point of carrying out any other commandments if you can't do these two?

Irrelevant.

noah

Oh so now you're a mind reader. How do you know Paul didn't mean this?
If he didn't mean this how do you know he meant anything else?

Proof? I thought this was the inerrant word of (your) God? It's in yout bible.
2 Timothy 3:16 in your beloved NT is pretty clear about how important and instructive the OT is in acheiving righteousness.
If you're badmouthing this part of your bible, why should I or anyone take you seriously when you talk about the bible at all?
In any case I'm glad to see you show such disrespect for your God.