Freethought & Rationalism Archive

yalla · 06-27-2005, 03:01 AM

I am reading "Eusebius-The History of The Church", Penguin Classics 1989 and on pages 133-4 of that edition, corresponding to H.E.4.26.5 Eusebius quotes the "Petition" of Melito, Bishop of Sardis, to the emperor thus:
"Our way of thought first sprang up in a foreign land but it flowered among your own peoples in the glorious reign of your ancestor Augustus...your ancestors respected it, as they did the other cults, and the greatest proof that the establishment of our religion at the very time when the Empire began so auspiciously....."
Now it seems to me that Eusebius has Melito saying that Christianity ["our way of thought..our religion"] "flowered" [began, I assume] IN the reign of Augustus i.e. PRE 14ce..
That's decades before the gospels version-Pilate,Caiaphas etc..Have I mistaken something here?
In a different book-"A New Eusebius" Ed.J. Stevenson SPCK London 1980 the passage is presented as follows on p.70:
"For our philosophy first flourished among barbarians; but after it had appeared among thy peoples DURING THE MIGHTY PRINCIPIATE OF THY ANCESTOR AUGUSTUS......." [My emphasis]
Any comments?

Chris Weimer · 06-27-2005, 04:41 AM

Caesar Agusutus started reigning before 14 CE. Plus there is no virtual difference in the translations you emphasized. Augustus was called princeps or "first citizen" thus his reign was called principiate.

What exactly are you asking?

yalla · 06-27-2005, 07:29 AM

Yes -that is my point, sorry I didn't make it clear, the 2 versions were just to show that it is not a translation problem.Basically Eusebius has Melito saying that Christianity developed BEFORE the traditional date of JC ie. approx 30 ce..I read it as Melito saying that Christianity flowered in the reign of Augustus ie BEFORE his death in 14ce..This appears to be incompatible with the gospel versions that are dated c.30ce.
The chronologies do not fit.Melito appears to contradict Mark et al.
The key words are "IN" [the reign of Augustus] and "DURING" [the reign of Augustus.]
According to Mark and company Augustus had been dead 20 years..or more.
[It suggests a Christianity NOT based on a HJ or at least not a gospels version].

Chris Weimer · 06-27-2005, 07:42 AM

The whole quote itself is a little odd. What does Eusebius mean when he says that Christianity first flourished among barbarians? Eusebius knows the gospels, so I'm not positive on how to take this. Let me look at in context and I'll be back to comment on it again.

Jedi Mind Trick · 06-27-2005, 09:43 AM

Could he be refering to Jesus' birth as the flowering?

Toto · 06-27-2005, 11:21 AM

Could Melito be referring to Judaism, with the assumption that Christianity is the heir to Judaism?

We don't know a lot about Melito, but Eusebius reports that he went to Palestine to discover which Hebrew books belonged in the canon, at a time when the NT canon was still unformed.

yalla · 06-27-2005, 09:17 PM

According to Eusebius, Melito, a Christian bishop circa 175ce, is writing to the current emperor to ask him to be nice to Christians. So the topic is Christianity.
Melito uses the phrase "OUR philosophy" ["way of thought" according to the alternate translation]. So he does not seem to be talking about Judaism or a person ie JC himself, but Christianity itself.
Judaism well and truly precedes "the mighty principiate of thy ancestor Augustus" ["glorious reign" in alternate version] and Melito says the philosophy to which he refers appeared at that time not before. That's what caught my eye, the placing of this philosophy/way of thought "IN" ["during"] the reign of Augustus ie 23 or 44 bce to 14ce. Well before Pilate et al.
And Melito says that this philosophy was "auspicious" for the Empire..."from that time on the power of the Romans increased to something great and splendid'' [blatant flattery].He goes on.."OUR DOCTRINE [surely not Judaism?] flourished alongside the empire in its happy inception" [again tying the time of Augustus to the time of this "way of thought/doctrine"].The alternate version has "the establishment of OUR RELIGION at the very time when the empire began so auspiciously".Melito is trying to tie the empire and Christianity together.
It seems to me:
1.Melito is writing about the development of Christianity.
2.He is placing the origin of this, as a religion, DURING the reign of Augustus.
3.That is 2 decades, or more, BEFORE the gospels time for JC.
4.Something is wrong here.
The section in History of the Church is 4.26.5.

Chris Weimer · 06-27-2005, 09:48 PM

well, we have two choices here. One, Melito is talking about the birth of Jesus, which is placed during the reign of Augustus, or Christianity according to Melito actually started out well before Jesus' purpoted death, meaning no cross, which would explain the growing Christian community as already starting out before it should have...

yalla · 06-27-2005, 10:22 PM

I tried finding out about Melito but came across a reoccurring problem.Namely the lack of solid information.It's amazing how often I have read details, given as solid fact, regarding early Christian figures and texts and then discovered that there is actually a paucity of knowledge or that texts are lost and only known by incomplete references and scraps in other writers. Marcion is a good example- the oft quoted details ''of Sinope..rich..tried for high office etc'' all seem to come from 1 only of his opponents.Papias perhaps a better example. And obviously Eusebius is a goldmine of such.So the thought passed my mind that maybe "somebody'' manufactured an appeal to the emperor and got carried away with the process and failed to maintain inherent conservative orthodoxy with regard to consistency.Maybe Eusebius or "Melito'' or pseudo Melito.
It does seem to me that this Eusebius quote is referring to the religion as such because he is equating the doctrine etc with the empire.The quote goes on to say that "from the time of the principiate of Augustus [pre 14ce] no evil has befallen it [our doctrine]'' and then excludes Nero and Domitian from that.It does not refer to Tiberius at all which if it was believed he was the emperor at the time of JC's execution you might expect.All in all I think this extract implies Chris' second possibility..''the growing Christian community..starting out before it should have.."

yalla · 06-27-2005, 10:30 PM

Toto..thanks for the link to the book BUT BE AWARE my copy has a major printing error...it goes from page xv111 to 312 to xx .I was not aware of this until after I bought and was in another state.
I just noticed, I'm not "new'' anymore..maybe that's why I feel old and tired.

06-27-2005, 03:01 AM	#1
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Eusebius,Melito and JC. I am reading "Eusebius-The History of The Church", Penguin Classics 1989 and on pages 133-4 of that edition, corresponding to H.E.4.26.5 Eusebius quotes the "Petition" of Melito, Bishop of Sardis, to the emperor thus: "Our way of thought first sprang up in a foreign land but it flowered among your own peoples in the glorious reign of your ancestor Augustus...your ancestors respected it, as they did the other cults, and the greatest proof that the establishment of our religion at the very time when the Empire began so auspiciously....." Now it seems to me that Eusebius has Melito saying that Christianity ["our way of thought..our religion"] "flowered" [began, I assume] IN the reign of Augustus i.e. PRE 14ce.. That's decades before the gospels version-Pilate,Caiaphas etc..Have I mistaken something here? In a different book-"A New Eusebius" Ed.J. Stevenson SPCK London 1980 the passage is presented as follows on p.70: "For our philosophy first flourished among barbarians; but after it had appeared among thy peoples DURING THE MIGHTY PRINCIPIATE OF THY ANCESTOR AUGUSTUS......." [My emphasis] Any comments?

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06-27-2005, 04:41 AM	#2
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Caesar Agusutus started reigning before 14 CE. Plus there is no virtual difference in the translations you emphasized. Augustus was called princeps or "first citizen" thus his reign was called principiate. What exactly are you asking?

06-27-2005, 07:29 AM	#3
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Yes -that is my point, sorry I didn't make it clear, the 2 versions were just to show that it is not a translation problem.Basically Eusebius has Melito saying that Christianity developed BEFORE the traditional date of JC ie. approx 30 ce..I read it as Melito saying that Christianity flowered in the reign of Augustus ie BEFORE his death in 14ce..This appears to be incompatible with the gospel versions that are dated c.30ce. The chronologies do not fit.Melito appears to contradict Mark et al. The key words are "IN" [the reign of Augustus] and "DURING" [the reign of Augustus.] According to Mark and company Augustus had been dead 20 years..or more. [It suggests a Christianity NOT based on a HJ or at least not a gospels version].

06-27-2005, 07:42 AM	#4
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	The whole quote itself is a little odd. What does Eusebius mean when he says that Christianity first flourished among barbarians? Eusebius knows the gospels, so I'm not positive on how to take this. Let me look at in context and I'll be back to comment on it again.

06-27-2005, 09:43 AM	#5
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Could he be refering to Jesus' birth as the flowering?

06-27-2005, 11:21 AM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Could Melito be referring to Judaism, with the assumption that Christianity is the heir to Judaism? We don't know a lot about Melito, but Eusebius reports that he went to Palestine to discover which Hebrew books belonged in the canon, at a time when the NT canon was still unformed.

06-27-2005, 09:17 PM	#7
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	According to Eusebius, Melito, a Christian bishop circa 175ce, is writing to the current emperor to ask him to be nice to Christians. So the topic is Christianity. Melito uses the phrase "OUR philosophy" ["way of thought" according to the alternate translation]. So he does not seem to be talking about Judaism or a person ie JC himself, but Christianity itself. Judaism well and truly precedes "the mighty principiate of thy ancestor Augustus" ["glorious reign" in alternate version] and Melito says the philosophy to which he refers appeared at that time not before. That's what caught my eye, the placing of this philosophy/way of thought "IN" ["during"] the reign of Augustus ie 23 or 44 bce to 14ce. Well before Pilate et al. And Melito says that this philosophy was "auspicious" for the Empire..."from that time on the power of the Romans increased to something great and splendid'' [blatant flattery].He goes on.."OUR DOCTRINE [surely not Judaism?] flourished alongside the empire in its happy inception" [again tying the time of Augustus to the time of this "way of thought/doctrine"].The alternate version has "the establishment of OUR RELIGION at the very time when the empire began so auspiciously".Melito is trying to tie the empire and Christianity together. It seems to me: 1.Melito is writing about the development of Christianity. 2.He is placing the origin of this, as a religion, DURING the reign of Augustus. 3.That is 2 decades, or more, BEFORE the gospels time for JC. 4.Something is wrong here. The section in History of the Church is 4.26.5.

06-27-2005, 09:48 PM	#8
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	well, we have two choices here. One, Melito is talking about the birth of Jesus, which is placed during the reign of Augustus, or Christianity according to Melito actually started out well before Jesus' purpoted death, meaning no cross, which would explain the growing Christian community as already starting out before it should have...

06-27-2005, 10:22 PM	#9
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	I tried finding out about Melito but came across a reoccurring problem.Namely the lack of solid information.It's amazing how often I have read details, given as solid fact, regarding early Christian figures and texts and then discovered that there is actually a paucity of knowledge or that texts are lost and only known by incomplete references and scraps in other writers. Marcion is a good example- the oft quoted details ''of Sinope..rich..tried for high office etc'' all seem to come from 1 only of his opponents.Papias perhaps a better example. And obviously Eusebius is a goldmine of such.So the thought passed my mind that maybe "somebody'' manufactured an appeal to the emperor and got carried away with the process and failed to maintain inherent conservative orthodoxy with regard to consistency.Maybe Eusebius or "Melito'' or pseudo Melito. It does seem to me that this Eusebius quote is referring to the religion as such because he is equating the doctrine etc with the empire.The quote goes on to say that "from the time of the principiate of Augustus [pre 14ce] no evil has befallen it [our doctrine]'' and then excludes Nero and Domitian from that.It does not refer to Tiberius at all which if it was believed he was the emperor at the time of JC's execution you might expect.All in all I think this extract implies Chris' second possibility..''the growing Christian community..starting out before it should have.."

06-27-2005, 10:30 PM	#10
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Toto..thanks for the link to the book BUT BE AWARE my copy has a major printing error...it goes from page xv111 to 312 to xx .I was not aware of this until after I bought and was in another state. I just noticed, I'm not "new'' anymore..maybe that's why I feel old and tired.

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