Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Casper · 07-14-2004, 09:42 AM

Hello everyone. I am a casual lurker who has enjoyed many of the discussions, and am right now viewing the monstrosity on the Pauline Epistles. Excellent stuff. As is most every thread here, short or long.

My interest right now is Marcion.

It is often said that Marcion's father was a bishop in Sinope. My question is, is this just popular folklore, an educated guess, or what?

And if true (or plausible at least), then the follow-up; bishop of what? What kind of church is this? Pauline, or pseudo-pre-Pauline maybe? Where do they get their liturgy? Their dogma? What is their dogma? How widespread is this? How do they operate? Can we assign dates closely enough to put together a general history of this church? What were the people like? Who was involved in the congreagtion? Was it respected or persecuted? What political powers existed there at that time? What ethnic group or groups lived there?

Just looking for a general rundown to all this. It would help me to appreciate some other aspects of Marcion if I knew these answers (or had a decent idea of possible answers).

Thanks so much!

Casper · 07-17-2004, 06:36 AM

Looks like several views but no comments? Should I rephrase the question?

I'm stuck and have nowhere to go on this. I'm open to speculation, opinion, suggested links, you name it.

About the best I can venture so far is Price's idea that Marcion used an Ur-Lukas of some sort, but that is kind of "after the fact".

Magdlyn · 07-17-2004, 07:15 AM

From what I have seen, Marcion's ancerstry is rather lost in the mists of time. No hard info, just half-guesses.

GakuseiDon · 07-17-2004, 08:16 AM

AFAIK, nearly all the information we have about Marcion comes from his opponents. Earlychristianwritings have some articles about him as well as some reconstructions of his writings: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/marcion.html

Ireneaus discusses Marcion's views here:

Quote:

2. Marcion of Pontus succeeded him, and developed his doctrine. In so doing, he advanced the most daring blasphemy against Him who is proclaimed as God by the law and the prophets, declaring Him to be the author of evils, to take delight in war, to be infirm of purpose, and even to be contrary to Himself. But Jesus being derived from that father who is above the God that made the world, and coming into Judaea in the times of Pontius Pilate the governor, who was the procurator of Tiberius Caesar, was manifested in the form of a man to those who were in Judaea, abolishing the prophets and the law, and all the works of that God who made the world, whom also he calls Cosmocrator. Besides this, he mutilates the Gospel which is according to Luke, removing all that is written respecting the generation of the Lord, and setting aside a great deal of the teaching of the Lord, in which the Lord is recorded as most dearly confessing that the Maker of this universe is His Father. He likewise persuaded his disciples that he himself was more worthy of credit than are those apostles who have handed down the Gospel to us, furnishing them not with the Gospel, but merely a fragment of it. In like manner, too, he dismembered the Epistles of Paul, removing all that is said by the apostle respecting that God who made the world, to the effect that He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and also those passages from the prophetical writings which the apostle quotes, in order to teach us that they announced beforehand the coming of the Lord.

3. Salvation will be the attainment only of those souls which had learned his doctrine; while the body, as having been taken from the earth, is incapable of sharing in salvation. In addition to his blasphemy against God Himself, he advanced this also, truly speaking as with the mouth of the devil, and saying all things in direct opposition to the truth,-that Cain, and those like him, and the Sodomites, and the Egyptians, and others like them, and, in fine, all the nations who walked in all sorts of abomination, were saved by the Lord, on His descending into Hades, and on their running unto Him, and that they welcomed Him into their kingdom. But the serpent304 which was in Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang305 from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.

4. But since this man is the only one who has dared openly to mutilate the Scriptures, and unblushingly above all others to inveigh against God, I purpose specially to refute him, convicting him out of his own writings; and, with the help of God, I shall overthrow him out of those306 discourses of the Lord and the apostles, which are of authority with him, and of which he makes use. At present, however, I have simply been led to mention him, that thou mightest know that all those who in any way corrupt the truth, and injuriously affect the preaching of the Church, are the disciples and successors of Simon Magus of Samaria. Although they do not confess the name of their master, in order all the more to seduce others, yet they do teach his doctrines. They set forth, indeed, the name of Christ Jesus as a sort of lure, but in various ways they introduce the impieties of Simon; and thus they destroy multitudes, wickedly disseminating their own doctrines by the use of a good name, and, through means of its sweetness and beauty, extending to their hearers the bitter and malignant poison of the serpent, the great author of apostasy.307

SLD · 07-17-2004, 08:35 PM

According to Tertullian Marcion's father was a bishop from Sinope in Pontus (on the south shores of the Black Sea).

While the structure of the church at this point is rather vague, the Roman Episcopacy was not the accepted structure. That is there were no popes, but there were bishops. Interestingly at this time, Bishops were not non-marrying men - Marcion was apparently a legitimate son and took over his father's shipping business, IIRC.

The interesting point about Marcionism is that it shows that the early church was so disorganized it almost never really got off the ground. The Gnostics never formed a true "Church" structure and thus didn't present a threat. Marcion formed a rival Christian Church based on the Pauline epistles and Luke. That got rid of the contradictions and did away with the Old Testament. But Marcionism became a serious threat for two centuries to the more established church which had to organize itself better to withstand the competition. Furthermore in an effort to combat Marcionism, the Church placed greater emphasis on the Pauline Epistles as part of the canon. Also, Marcionism spurred the adoption of the latter Pastoral epistles, Timothy 1 & 2 and Titus.

A good book on this and other questions posed by the OP is "A History of Christian Thought - Volume 1" by Justo L. Gonzalez. I'm still plowing through it, but finished up Marcionism just a few minutes ago.

SLD

Toto · 07-18-2004, 01:01 AM

A History of Christian Thought - Volume 1 by Justo L. Gonzalez.

Casper · 07-20-2004, 05:04 PM

Thank you all for your responses. I fell bad because I was getting impatient and then I turn around and get too busy to reply, LOL! I apologize.

GakuseiDon, I know about this piece, and I think it is important not to leave out the subject of paragraph one, which is about Cerdo. There is definitely some gnostic interaction one way or another. How about in the church where he was raised? Possible? Or was this later a part of a rebellious youth? Was Marcion just a face the Petrines used to paint a more vivid picture of their gnostic bogeyman?

SLD, maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the idea of Marcion's father being a bishop came originally from Hippolytus? If I am remembering things correctly, this bishop father was supposed to be the Philologus (sp?) mentioned favorably in Romans, I think 15 or 16. Could this have been either a made-up pedigree? Or possibly an invention by the Petrines to make him look even worse? (Such a fine boy, good family, he must be pure evil to act in such a way...)

SLD & Toto, thanks for the heads-up. Does this book offer any light on the subject of pre-Marcion Marcion? Things you would need to form an opinion about his upbringing, who his father might be, if either was actually a bishop, and if so, a bishop of what, etc?

07-14-2004, 09:42 AM	#1
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	Concerning the life of Marcion Hello everyone. I am a casual lurker who has enjoyed many of the discussions, and am right now viewing the monstrosity on the Pauline Epistles. Excellent stuff. As is most every thread here, short or long. My interest right now is Marcion. It is often said that Marcion's father was a bishop in Sinope. My question is, is this just popular folklore, an educated guess, or what? And if true (or plausible at least), then the follow-up; bishop of what? What kind of church is this? Pauline, or pseudo-pre-Pauline maybe? Where do they get their liturgy? Their dogma? What is their dogma? How widespread is this? How do they operate? Can we assign dates closely enough to put together a general history of this church? What were the people like? Who was involved in the congreagtion? Was it respected or persecuted? What political powers existed there at that time? What ethnic group or groups lived there? Just looking for a general rundown to all this. It would help me to appreciate some other aspects of Marcion if I knew these answers (or had a decent idea of possible answers). Thanks so much!

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07-17-2004, 06:36 AM	#2
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	Looks like several views but no comments? Should I rephrase the question? I'm stuck and have nowhere to go on this. I'm open to speculation, opinion, suggested links, you name it. About the best I can venture so far is Price's idea that Marcion used an Ur-Lukas of some sort, but that is kind of "after the fact".

07-17-2004, 07:15 AM	#3
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	From what I have seen, Marcion's ancerstry is rather lost in the mists of time. No hard info, just half-guesses.

07-17-2004, 08:35 PM	#5
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	According to Tertullian Marcion's father was a bishop from Sinope in Pontus (on the south shores of the Black Sea). While the structure of the church at this point is rather vague, the Roman Episcopacy was not the accepted structure. That is there were no popes, but there were bishops. Interestingly at this time, Bishops were not non-marrying men - Marcion was apparently a legitimate son and took over his father's shipping business, IIRC. The interesting point about Marcionism is that it shows that the early church was so disorganized it almost never really got off the ground. The Gnostics never formed a true "Church" structure and thus didn't present a threat. Marcion formed a rival Christian Church based on the Pauline epistles and Luke. That got rid of the contradictions and did away with the Old Testament. But Marcionism became a serious threat for two centuries to the more established church which had to organize itself better to withstand the competition. Furthermore in an effort to combat Marcionism, the Church placed greater emphasis on the Pauline Epistles as part of the canon. Also, Marcionism spurred the adoption of the latter Pastoral epistles, Timothy 1 & 2 and Titus. A good book on this and other questions posed by the OP is "A History of Christian Thought - Volume 1" by Justo L. Gonzalez. I'm still plowing through it, but finished up Marcionism just a few minutes ago. SLD

07-18-2004, 01:01 AM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	A History of Christian Thought - Volume 1 by Justo L. Gonzalez.

07-20-2004, 05:04 PM	#7
Casper Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 430	Thank you all for your responses. I fell bad because I was getting impatient and then I turn around and get too busy to reply, LOL! I apologize. GakuseiDon, I know about this piece, and I think it is important not to leave out the subject of paragraph one, which is about Cerdo. There is definitely some gnostic interaction one way or another. How about in the church where he was raised? Possible? Or was this later a part of a rebellious youth? Was Marcion just a face the Petrines used to paint a more vivid picture of their gnostic bogeyman? SLD, maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the idea of Marcion's father being a bishop came originally from Hippolytus? If I am remembering things correctly, this bishop father was supposed to be the Philologus (sp?) mentioned favorably in Romans, I think 15 or 16. Could this have been either a made-up pedigree? Or possibly an invention by the Petrines to make him look even worse? (Such a fine boy, good family, he must be pure evil to act in such a way...) SLD & Toto, thanks for the heads-up. Does this book offer any light on the subject of pre-Marcion Marcion? Things you would need to form an opinion about his upbringing, who his father might be, if either was actually a bishop, and if so, a bishop of what, etc?

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