darstec

If they were late rabbinical sources then they could not possibly have gone back to the time of Joshua's supposed life. There is not evidence that the rabbinic tradition started before the Final Diaspora after 134 CE. And even then those texts would have been 'early". It is one thing to take it on faith that any of those religious works were first century works and another to validate that.

The only reason for considering an early date for rabbinical studies, the New Testament or the Gnostic works is that if one does not do that, that leaves one with the only possible conclusion that Christianity and its heroes are simply myth. Lots of scholars would be out of jobs if that could be established.

And the parallel conclusion is that there is no evidence for any Old Testament literature prior to the sixth century, so that too is largely myth.

andrewcriddle

"could not possibly" is clearly wrong. You may well be right that the tradition in Exodus Rabbah does not go back in its present form to the time of Jesus. However a general interest in devils and their powers and limitations is part of the late 2nd temple world-view in a way that it was not part of the OT world-view. As a clearly contemporary example see some of the scrolls from Qumran. eg the fragmentary text 4Q560 discussed by Penney and Wise in By the Power of Beelzebub JBL 113 (1994) pps 627-50.

Andrew Criddle

show_no_mercy

The idea that there are malevolent spirits that act independently of YHWH is a result of Persian/Hellenistic influence.

Unless you want to think that Exodus was written after Alexander the Great conquered Judea.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Andrew Criddle: Do you believe that the Pharisees believed that Jesus cast out demons and healed sick people by the power of Beelzebub?

darstec

For Joshua I am referring to the misleading translation Jesus. And why say Second Temple rather than the more correct form of simply Temple? There is no evidence of any First Temple. As the NT the OT is primarily fiction.

And what you write in no way negates the fact that the devil makes no appearance in the Moses story. I didn't see anything in 4Q560 that refers to Moses. You seem to be connecting dots that are not in proximity to each other. The rabbinical texts are far removed from both the first century and the Hebrew Exodus story. It seems to be a Journal To The Center of The Earth story (the new movie) combining hundred million year old dinosaurs, with a hundred year old novel and adding twenty first century cell phones, laptops and jets.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Andrew Criddle: Do you believe that the Pharisees believed that Jesus cast out demons and healed sick people by the power of Beelzebub?

andrewcriddle

Hi Johnny

I believe that some of Jesus' opponents believed that Jesus cast out demons and hence healed sick people by the power of Beelzebub.

If you compare the different synoptic versions of this accusation it is doubtful whether these opponents were originally regarded as Pharisees.

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic

I believe that it would have been very unlikely that anyone who believed that God gave Moses the power to perform miracles, and that God healed people, would believe that Jesus cast out demons and healed people by the power of Beelzebub. Surely no one believed that God would give Jesus the power to heal sick people if Jesus cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub. Followers of the Old Testament would have believed that casting out demons and healing sick people were good things, and that good things come from God, not from Beelzebub. Why would anyone believe that Beelzebub would give people the power to cast out his fellow beings? That would be a ridiculous assumption. Surely followers of the Old Testament expected God to send a messiah, and would have been quite pleased if a messiah cast out demons and healed sick people.

The claims are obviously false. The only question is whether that is due to lying, inaccurate second hand sources, or innocent but inaccurate revelations, just like many other claims in the Bible.

andrewcriddle

I suggested earlier in this thread that Jesus was being compared to the magicians who imitated Moses' miracles using power that was not from God.

Andrew Criddle

Johnny Skeptic

But why would anyone have made such a comparison? As far as I know, the Old Testament always attributes healings to God, never to the Devil. That indicates that if Jesus healed people, followers of the Old Testament would have believed that God gave him the power to heal people. Since casting out demons is also very beneficial, it is reasonable to assume that followers of the Old Testament would have approved of anything that a messiah did that was beneficial.

It would be ridiculous to assume that any follower of the Old Testament believed that Beelzebub would give people the power to cast out his fellow evil beings, which would have made God look good, not Beelzebub since people would have believed that God was responsible.