BALDUCCI

I was listening to an interesting BBC program on Ockham's Razor, and the debate about whether the "Fall of Man (and Woman)" could be taken as the justification for human government and central authority. The religious philosophers of the time regarded The Fall as being an essential core of Christian faith (Jesus rescues us individually from our own sins, and collectively from Original Sin), and see The Fall as changing the essential nature of human society, creating the need for authority and power to guide human affairs on earth..of course, the "government" included the need for the Church to control its subjects too, giving the Pope the authority over prospects of heaven or hell, and the power to drive individuals from the grace of God through excommunication.

What I dont understand is whether the very existence of more than two humans (Adam and Eve) was only possible through the Fall, which led to procreation and thus the human race. (God, according to Genesis, indirectly) created at least one more human after Adam ingested the apple, because Cain found someone to marry after he killed his brother).

So is it correct to assume that the very existence of the human race is the consequence of Original Sin, and without that, we would simply have had the divine Adam-Eve experiment ? And presumably, no need for Jesus either ? Or is there any evidence that God intended to populate the planet with perfect people who would live forever, never procreate, and require no central authority in human terms ? Is it even correct to think of Adam and Eve as human, given that they would live forever, and would eschew one of the core characteristics of humankind, namely, having children ?

Sorry that this seems simple-minded, but I have never actually read any consideration of these basic questions. So this is a plea, to those who know about these things, to explain to me what is going on here.

(I appreciate that, with the exception of daft redneck pagans from the Bible Belt, who claim hilariously to be Christians, that sensible people regard genesis as a myth derived from the Babylonians and others, and I am not especially concerned with this dimension. I am interested in the theological debate, both current and going back to the time of Ockham....who was excommunicated for disagreeing with the notion that The Fall justified centralised authority, and accused the Pope, who justified his powers by this argument, as a heretic)

GakuseiDon

Keeping in mind the mythical nature of Genesis... In Gen 1, God said "Be fruitful and multiply", before the Fall, so I guess that God's intention all along was to populate the planet.

gstafleu

Then you're not going to understand what is going on. The Adam and Eve story is a rather idiosyncratic corruption of normal themes in creation stories. This has given rise to various inconsistencies in the story, as you point out. You can only figure out what is going on by first learning about the elements of the story and what they meant originally, and then figuring out what the writer(s) of Gen 2/3 did to them.

Gerard Stafleu

Clivedurdle

But there is a problem here - British Courts have the Royal Coat of Arms in them with the motto Dieu et mon Droit.

The whole idea of guilt and innocence is derived from this concept of original sin.

The state acts as a god in punishing sinners whilst they are still alive - it is not rational - has anyone asked why, what does doing this achieve, where is the evidence base for doing this?

And if we seriously look at our genetics and ask could two people - and Cain laying with his mum - resulted in our current genetic diversity, we also need to check the assumptions behind our laws.

Eldarion Lathria

"'And Cain knew his wife, and conceived, and bore to him a son, Enoch.' Now where the hell did she come from?" Clarence Darrow.
"Who?" William Jennings Bryan.
"Mrs. Cain. Cain's wife." Clarence Darrow.

L. Sprague De Camp. The History of the Great Monkey Trial

So where the hell DID she come from?

Eldarion Lathria.

Chili

She once was taken from man to be his dowry in betrhothal to Cain just as Mary was to Joseph who was called Jesus after rebirth and Christ after resurrection when he walked with God.

Chili

Original sin identifies the conscious mind as the Tree of Knowledge wherein man is divided and sparated from the Tree of Life within his own mind. In the tree of Life man is "God" and in the Tree of Knowledge man is "like god" and human or earthly (hu- is from humi = earthly), to say that man without the prefix hu- is other-than-earthly and heavenly if you allow me to place heaven opposite to earth.

The human condtion makes man a social animal so it is wrong to say that the fall of man changed human society. The fact it hat man as God is a solitary individual without the need for social comfort.

The reason that original sin is a fact is because at-one-ment is possible.

Chili

That's a pity indeed, Clive. The Church encourages he courageous sinner with the absolution he receives each and every time he goes to confession.

gstafleu

Any reason why it can't be Eve?

Gerard Stafleu

ksen

I always figured she was his sister. :huh: