Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 02-19-2012, 01:22 PM

This is crazy, Stephan. The Bible Unearthed was published over a decade ago, and it makes it clear that there is no archaeological evidence for anything like the Exodus. A prominent rabbi in Los Angeles preached a Passover sermon at the time, accepting the idea that the Exodus never happened, in a city full of holocaust survivors, and no one got upset. It's well accepted now that there was no Exodus. Why are you making this an issue?

LA Times

Quote:

Many scholars have quietly concluded that the epic of Moses never happened, and even Jewish clerics are raising questions. Others think it combines myth, cultural memories and kernels of truth.

By Teresa Watanabe
Los Angeles Times April 13, 2001

It's one of the greatest stories ever told: A baby is found in a basket adrift in the Egyptian Nile and is adopted into the pharaoh's household. He grows up as Moses, rediscovers his roots and leads his enslaved Israelite brethren to freedom after God sends down 10 plagues against Egypt and parts the Red Sea to allow them to escape. They wander for 40 years in the wilderness and, under the leadership of Joshua, conquer the land of Canaan to enter their promised land.

For centuries, the biblical account of the Exodus has been revered as the founding story of the Jewish people, sacred scripture for three world religions and a universal symbol of freedom that has inspired liberation movements around the globe. But did the Exodus ever actually occur?

On Passover last Sunday, Rabbi David Wolpe raised that provocative question before 2,200 faithful at Sinai Temple in Westwood. He minced no words. "The truth is that virtually every modern archeologist who has investigated the story of the Exodus, with very few exceptions, agrees that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way it happened, if it happened at all," Wolpe told his congregants.

Wolpe's startling sermon may have seemed blasphemy to some. In fact, however, the rabbi was merely telling his flock what scholars have known for more than a decade. Slowly and often outside wide public purview, archeologists are radically reshaping modern understanding of the Bible. It was time for his people to know about it, Wolpe decided. After a century of excavations trying to prove the ancient accounts true, archeologists say there is no conclusive evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, were ever enslaved, ever wandered in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years or ever conquered the land of Canaan under Joshua's leadership. To the contrary, the prevailing view is that most of Joshua's fabled military campaigns never occurred--archeologists have uncovered ash layers and other signs of destruction at the relevant time at only one of the many battlegrounds mentioned in the Bible.

stephan huller · 02-19-2012, 01:38 PM

oh well if there's a book published that says that ...

Toto · 02-19-2012, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

oh well if there's a book published that says that ...

Not just a book - books, peer reviewed articles, all by non-self-hating Jews.

Sheshbazzar · 02-19-2012, 01:53 PM

Wow. Amazing. One has to wonder at how a person who has been such a large presence in this forum for so long could possibly remain so uninformed.
Like Finkelstein & Silberman's "The Bible Unearthed" earth-shaker is anything new?

Duvduv · 02-19-2012, 01:56 PM

Well, given the fact that God does not operate within our limitations of time and space there is no way you can empirically prove these things at all.
As far as the Flood is concerned, midrashim and commentaries explain that the flood only occurred where there was human habitation. And since we count the age of the world from the creation of Man, everything before that is beyond our perception in as much as the very act of creation is beyond our concepts of time and space.
Of course there are many things we do not understand and make judgments about. The theories about the movements of the planets in our solar system cannot be empirically proven because we have not been able to be far enough in space to see the relationship between two bodies.
But personally of course I have bigger worries in life, and I do enjoy participating in these dicussions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I wonder just what the unbiased scientific criteria or laws actually are for determining what is considered a "myth" and what is not.

Are you including the global flood theory, creationism, and the young earth theory?

stephan huller · 02-19-2012, 02:01 PM

I am very familiar with Finkelstein and Silberman. That isn't the point. Archaeological evidence is only one half of the equation. The other is the testimonial of pagans who hated the Jews but still acknowledged the historicity of the Exodus.

stephan huller · 02-19-2012, 02:07 PM

As my wife watches endless Whitney Houston stories on TV now let me take an example from something Bobby Brown said about her in his recent tell all that Whitney only married him to clear away lesbian rumors.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrit...lesbian-687152

My point is that sometimes there is just testimonials to develop answers to questions. That's why I happen to find the whole question of which celebrities in Hollywood are gay so fascinating. Was Whitney Houston a lesbian? I don't know that we can be certain either way and this 'event' (life) happened very recently.

I have no doubts that archaeology does not support a literal taking of the Exodus narrative. But is that the same thing as saying that the pagan's were wrong in attributing an Egyptian origin to the Israelites? And why would they have done that?

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-19-2012, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

oh well if there's a book published that says that ...

The book referred to was written by two highly credentialed Israeli archaeologists. Israel Finkelstein is the Chair of the Archaeology Department at Tel Aviv University. It's no amateur nonsense, it's two leading scholars in the area presenting the state of the art of ANE archaeology to a lay audience.

Diogenes the Cynic · 02-19-2012, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I am very familiar with Finkelstein and Silberman. That isn't the point. Archaeological evidence is only one half of the equation. The other is the testimonial of pagans who hated the Jews but still acknowledged the historicity of the Exodus.

By what means were those pagans able to verify the historicity of the Exodus?

Sheshbazzar · 02-19-2012, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I am very familiar with Finkelstein and Silberman. That isn't the point. Archaeological evidence is only one half of the equation. The other is the testimonial of pagans who hated the Jews but still acknowledged the historicity of the Exodus.

Well if that is your problem, there is little problem at all.
About all that these pagans would have known about the early history of the Jews would have been that made up mythological history that Judaism had fed to them.

To the rest of the ancient world Judaism and the land of Israel and its religious beliefs was not the center of their world, or considered to be of much consequence at all.
It was just another strange and backward barbarian squabbling province to be conquered and civilized.
At that time of the Greek and the Roman Empires had about as little interest, respect, or concern for determining accurate Jewish history as Cortez and Co. did for the details of the true history of the Aztec empire.

These conquers didn't much give a shit about Israel or its imaginary history. Just that it paid its taxes and kissed the Emperors ass. Jews would tell them their religious mythology, and they'd shrug their shoulders and say; 'Whatever'....how many head of cattle do you have?

You seem to have missed this earlier question, and it is an important one.

Stephan, you have repeatedly cited something allegely written by Manetho as being the reason for your persuasion.

Thus it should not be unreasonable to ask of you, exactly what it is that you think was written by Manetho?

.

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02-19-2012, 01:38 PM	#142
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	oh well if there's a book published that says that ...

02-19-2012, 01:53 PM	#144
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Wow. Amazing. One has to wonder at how a person who has been such a large presence in this forum for so long could possibly remain so uninformed. Like Finkelstein & Silberman's "The Bible Unearthed" earth-shaker is anything new?

02-19-2012, 02:01 PM	#146
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am very familiar with Finkelstein and Silberman. That isn't the point. Archaeological evidence is only one half of the equation. The other is the testimonial of pagans who hated the Jews but still acknowledged the historicity of the Exodus.

02-19-2012, 02:07 PM	#147
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	As my wife watches endless Whitney Houston stories on TV now let me take an example from something Bobby Brown said about her in his recent tell all that Whitney only married him to clear away lesbian rumors. http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrit...lesbian-687152 My point is that sometimes there is just testimonials to develop answers to questions. That's why I happen to find the whole question of which celebrities in Hollywood are gay so fascinating. Was Whitney Houston a lesbian? I don't know that we can be certain either way and this 'event' (life) happened very recently. I have no doubts that archaeology does not support a literal taking of the Exodus narrative. But is that the same thing as saying that the pagan's were wrong in attributing an Egyptian origin to the Israelites? And why would they have done that?

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