Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 01-08-2004, 03:26 AM

LOL! rlogan, I will steal that.

yalla · 01-08-2004, 03:39 AM

I believe that the initial dating of Paul is based on 2Cor11-32 where Paul states he escaped from Damascus when the governor of King Aretas tried to seize him.Aretas apparently died about 40ce [I think].I believe there is some debate about whether Aretas actually governed Damascus at that time but ,anyway,it seems that that is the starting point for dating Paul.

CX · 01-08-2004, 08:17 AM

Please, let's keep on topic and avoid the short personal attacks that contribute nothing.

Thanks,

CX - B,C&H moderator

Jabu Khan · 01-08-2004, 08:25 AM

I think he wrote them after John and Yoko hooked up

Toto · 01-08-2004, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by yalla
I believe that the initial dating of Paul is based on 2Cor11-32 where Paul states he escaped from Damascus when the governor of King Aretas tried to seize him.Aretas apparently died about 40ce [I think].I believe there is some debate about whether Aretas actually governed Damascus at that time but ,anyway,it seems that that is the starting point for dating Paul.

The "Damascus" episode is very problematic.

From here

Quote:

The Aretas Datum. Paul does mention his escape from arrest in Damascus by the ethnarch of the Nabatean king, Aretas IV (2 Corinthians 11:32-33), but this reference is not as helpful as one might wish.

(a) One problem is that we have (so far as this writer knows) no direct evidence of Nabatean control of Damascus during this period except from this reference in Paul. Nabatean control is possible so far as external sources are concerned, but not proven. (b) It is uncertain whether Aretas controlled Damascus directly, or only through his ethnarch. (c) While it has been plausibly argued that Nabatean control would have been unlikely before the death of the emperor Tiberius in A.D. 37, not all are convinced. (d) The death of Aretas IV is variously dated as early as 38, and as late as 40. . . .

Doig, NT Chronology

Quote:

Ethnarch is often translated "governor," implying that Aretas IV had some control over Damascus. Aretas IV, the Nabataean king, began his reign in Petra in about 9 BCE (Ant. XVI 11:9). His inscriptions and coins cease in his forty-eighth year, making his death in about 39 CE. However, there is no historical record that he ever had control over Damascus, which was long under the control of the Romans. . . . . The "ethnarch" may only have been the leader of the Nabataean colony in Damascus. The lack of confirmation during this period seems to rule out the possibility that Aretas did gain military control, or possibly was given control by the Romans.
A simple explanation may be available. The Romans did allow the Jews in Alexandria to be ruled by a Jewish ethnarch, "who governs the nation, and distributes justice to them, and takes care of their contracts, and of the laws to them belonging, as if he were the ruler of a free republic." (Ant. XIV 7:2) From the comment in Scripture it is easy to conclude the Romans also allowed a Nabataean ethnarch in Damascus, with similar powers.

emphasis added

Notice the speculation on what might have been, with very little evidence.

However, from The Runaway Paul, it seems more likely that the story about the escape from Damascus was an allegory, a bit of stand up comedy even.

Quote:

I have said enough to lead one to expect to find the explanation of the account of Paul's flight from Damascus among the records of the mime and the performances of its fools.
. . .

It is as such a fool, a runaway, that Paul presents himself at the center of the speech in 2 Cor 11:32-33: sought by the ethnarch of the Nabataean king, who had garrisoned the city of Damascus in order to arrest him, Paul hid in a basket and was let down through a window in the wall, so making his escape. His concise portrait of himself as a runaway contains all the features of a fool of this type: trickery, concealment, awkward predicaments, and flight. The picture takes its place in the gallery of fools, fitting well between the anxious old man and the learned impostor. Marked oft by interjections (in 2 Cor 11:30; 12:1a), and prefaced by an oath (2 Cor 11:31), the apostle's self-portrait as a runaway fool stands at the center of the speech proper (2 Cor 11:21b-12:10).(349) The placement of the pericope can hardly be accidental, given the rhetorical self-consciousness of the discourse as a whole.(350) Rather, Paul's presentation of himself in this way is the climax of the speech from the standpoint of irony,(351) for the runaway is a fool of the basest sort--thievish, clownish, and recreant.

Many of the particular features of the passage 2 Cor 11:32-33 are illuminated by the recognition that Paul has shaped the account of his flight in accordance with the conventions of the mimic stage. The asyndetic beginning of verse 32, [...] ("in Damascus"), has long troubled interpreters.(352) The phrase functions to set the stage for the scene that follows. It is thus the verbal counterpart of the emblem panels revealed at the beginning of a performance by removal of the curtain, which established the type of play to be presented, its theme, and its subject matter.(353) Such central decorative panels are visible on a number of wall paintings in houses from Rome and Pompeii, depicting temporary wooden stages used in the mime.(354) Their emblematic function is clear, although the relevant iconography is now largely lost. Similarly, Paul's opening phrase, [...], sets the stage for the performance that follows.

His picture of his narrow scrape in exiting the city "through a window in the wall" (verse 33) may also owe something to the architecture of the ancient stage. A regular feature of the wooden stage used in comedy, farce, and mime was the angiportum, a narrow passageway running just behind the stage facade.(355) There are frequent references to this "back passage" in the comedies of Plautus.(356) As these references suggest, "It was used as a theatrical convention to account for necessary movement of the characters when that movement could not take place openly (for reasons of plot)."(357) Paul may evoke this stage feature in his account of flight: the aspect of "passage" is emphasized by repetition of the preposition [GTNR]; Paul passes, literally, "through the window ... through the wall."

The term [...], which the apostle chooses(358) to describe the conveyance by which he was let down (verse 33), resonates with the theatrical context of his remarks. The [...] was a plaited or braided basket, primarily used for fish.(359) Fish names were popular in comedy and mime, especially as terms of abuse.(360) The old fisherman was a favorite type of fool on the mimic stage, judging from the surviving titles of mimes by Sophron ([...], "The Tunnyfisher") and Laberius (Piscator).(361) The verb [....] is likewise a term associated with fishing.(362)

Finally, the abrupt conclusion of Paul's account imitates the denouements of the mimes. Abrupt endings were natural to these short, improvised pieces.(363) Cicero pointedly contrasts the finale of the mime with that of regular drama, telling us how, when the plot has reached a deadlock, "someone escapes from someone's clutches" (fugit aliquis e manibus), the scabillarii sound the signal for "curtain," and the aulaeum rises from the floor to conceal the stage from view.(364) Paul brings his account to an abrupt conclusion: the effect is the result of the structure of the sentence, whose final colon, [...] ("and I escaped his grasp"), is characterized by concentration and intensity.(365)

{unfortunately, Greek characters were not transliterated in that article}

spin · 01-10-2004, 01:11 AM

Damascus of course was the seat of Roman control of Syria from 64 BCE onwards.

Aretas III definitely had control of Damascus around 85 BCE. Could we be looking at a Paul written then?

spin

offa · 01-10-2004, 11:26 AM

You are so close yet so far away. Damascus is Tyre is about ten miles up creek fron Qumran. That is where the Nabateans were. And they were Hebrews.

Paul was born about ten years before the crucifixion in 33 AD. Jesus had a daughter born to him in 33 AD. When Paul was shorn like a sheep he married this girl in about fifty AD. He name was Phoebe and she became his servant. She had a younger brother named Justus.

Toto · 01-10-2004, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spin
Damascus of course was the seat of Roman control of Syria from 64 BCE onwards.

Aretas III definitely had control of Damascus around 85 BCE. Could we be looking at a Paul written then?

spin

I have read speculation that Paul was a Jewish missionary whose letters were adopted by later Christians and Christianized with references to Jesus. But 85 BCE sounds pretty drastic, especially since there is no mention of Paul's letters until the second century (or possibly the late first century.) A date of 85 BCE would require us to believe that there were underground Churches of God that did not make an impact on either Roman or Jewish history until almost two centuries had passed, but which carefully preserved Paul's writings.

I suppose it's possible, but it seems easier to explain the reference to Damascus as a coded reference to something else.

Adora · 01-10-2004, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by offa
Paul was born about ten years before the crucifixion in 33 AD. Jesus had a daughter born to him in 33 AD. When Paul was shorn like a sheep he married this girl in about fifty AD. He name was Phoebe and she became his servant. She had a younger brother named Justus.

Interesting. Where did you get this from offa?

rlogan · 01-10-2004, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Adora
Interesting. Where did you get this from offa?

A couple bong hits of Thai stick.

01-08-2004, 03:39 AM	#12
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Wen were Paul's letters written? I believe that the initial dating of Paul is based on 2Cor11-32 where Paul states he escaped from Damascus when the governor of King Aretas tried to seize him.Aretas apparently died about 40ce [I think].I believe there is some debate about whether Aretas actually governed Damascus at that time but ,anyway,it seems that that is the starting point for dating Paul.

01-08-2004, 08:17 AM	#13
CX Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portlandish Posts: 2,829	To all. Please, let's keep on topic and avoid the short personal attacks that contribute nothing. Thanks, CX - B,C&H moderator

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01-08-2004, 03:26 AM	#11
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	LOL! rlogan, I will steal that.

01-08-2004, 08:25 AM	#14
Jabu Khan Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: the impenetrable fortress of the bubbleheads Posts: 1,308	I think he wrote them after John and Yoko hooked up

01-10-2004, 01:11 AM	#16
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Damascus of course was the seat of Roman control of Syria from 64 BCE onwards. Aretas III definitely had control of Damascus around 85 BCE. Could we be looking at a Paul written then? spin

01-10-2004, 11:26 AM	#17
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	You are so close yet so far away. Damascus is Tyre is about ten miles up creek fron Qumran. That is where the Nabateans were. And they were Hebrews. Paul was born about ten years before the crucifixion in 33 AD. Jesus had a daughter born to him in 33 AD. When Paul was shorn like a sheep he married this girl in about fifty AD. He name was Phoebe and she became his servant. She had a younger brother named Justus.

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