Volker

Saying that god is not bound by logic gives us a new twist on the Problem of Evil.

If you assume that it is not possible to create a world where man has a free will and won't sin, you are assuming a logical restriction on god. If it is possible for god, he should have done it. He hasn't, so he can't be called good.

The only way out - the only way to make the free-will-defense work - is to assume that god really is bound by logic. So christians try to do two things - they tell us that god is not bound by logic and at the same time that god isn't able to do something which involves a logical contradiction. Both can't be true. Christians should try to make a decision here, and no matter how they decide, they'll face a lot of problems.

MachineGod

Because it's fun.

Ok, let's play...

First, the whole "nothing can exist outside of time, so god didn't have enough time to decide to create the universe" is very weak if we consider the possibilities of general relativity. If time is relative, then all one could logically say is that God is outside of "our" time, as seen from our frame of reference. The old phrase, "time slows down as you approach the speed of light"... Yet, from that frame of reference it is still the same, it only appears to slow down from an "outside" frame of reference.

This, in terms of God, creates another problem though. It implies that God is in motion relative to us, which seems to be inconceivable. The only way to answer this is if we make the premise, "God is light" or "is manifest in light". This is likened unto the biblical assertion that, "God is the consuming fire". The visible spectrum is but one-tenth of the "known" electromagnetic spectrum. If the entity exists within this entire spectrum (and beyond the known limits of it), it may be plausible that, because he is "so powerful" one may not see it with the human eye (the same as we can't see the "powerful" gamma radiation energy with the eye), and detecting it would be impossible because he is "everywhere"...therefore leaving no anomalies in which compare, because it would essentially be in every fabric of space and time. It may be acceptable then upon condition of the premises, that if he were to take on a manifestation that you can see, that he would emit light to its utter extent. (The same way a piece of metal emits light when you heat it up...if you get it hot enough (energized electrons) it emits white light), therefore shedding "light" (pun?) on the phrase "God is the consuming fire".

Further, if God is "everywhere" yet still in motion relative to us, we must conjecture that the motion is "fluid" (like when you're submerged in an ocean, the water is "everywhere" yet still in motion). At this point we can say, if time slows down as one approaches the speed of light, then it may make sense that "at some point" time would actually come to a halt, relative to an "outside" frame of reference. So then if time has come to a halt in such a way, it's conceivable that it could be termed "outside of time" or "beyond time" even though relative to the god, time is "normal".


Now on to "God is beyond logic". Logic is a system of reasoning. So in essence, God is not bound by reason, which seems much more acceptable saying it like that. In other words, logic can be seen as merely based on current knowledge. One may think something is illogical, but only because they don't understand the reason, or reasoning behind it.

Example:
Can God create a star that is too dim to see from any relevancy? Sounds illogical right? In fact, this is what we call a black hole.

The "can God create a rock that is too heavy for him to lift and then lift it"...ignores the variable of gravity relative to its mass. A rock that is too heavy for you to lift on earth can be lifted if you're on, say, the moon. So essentially such a question is just asking him to "turn on" the gravity higher even if the rock he created is just a small pebble. The gravity required to make such a rock too heavy for a god to lift, and then him lifting it could be done all in the same act of motion...(Logic is thrown out remember? So the gravity might force it straight through the crust of the earth, up is down and down is up, so it's being lifted by the gravity that makes it so heavy, all done by God, lol)

Is it logical that two parallel lines ever meet? Sounds illogical. Interesting that it's a geometric fact that they can when wrapped three DIMENSIONally around a sphere. (our global coordinate system)

Is it illogical that something be both blue, and yellow, at the same time? Sounds illogical doesn't it?
If you shine a beam of light (electromagnetic radiation) onto a ball, you see green. What’s happening is that all colors in the visible spectrum are being absorbed into the surface of the ball, except the pure color blue and the pure color yellow. These two separate colors in the spectrum of light are reflected from the surface of the ball, enters the retina, hits the photoreceptors, converted to electrical signal, goes to the primary visual cortex, to groups of cortical cells, transmitted to the brain, where the image is put back together, and whollaa...you see green.

Further…

Because all colors in the spectrum are absorbed into the ball, and reflecting only the pure color blue and the pure color yellow, then it could be logically debated that the ball is every color “except� blue and yellow.

AND…it can logically be debated, since electromagnetic radiation is the only reason you perceive color, that the ball is actually NO COLOR AT ALL.

So, the ball in this example, is both totally blue, and totally yellow.
And it is every color except blue and yellow
AND it is absolutely no color at all.

Mutual exclusivity anyone?

Logic is just a process of reasoning and understanding. What you call illogical may merely be for the lack of understanding the reasons. Is God outside of logic? Which is to say, Is God outside our understanding? At the moment, yes.


P.S. Don't be too hard on me, lol. I may have missed the consideration of a ffew opposing points. Cheers

show_no_mercy

Then God is still bound by time. Just not our time.

Black holes aren't stars, they're the remnants of stars. Just like white dwarfs aren't really stars - even though they give off light. Stars have to be producing some sort of fusion at their core.

This is like the old computer science joke "there are only 10 people who understand binary - those who do, and those who don't." It's playing around with contexts. So what you're saying is that God is bound by logic, but the contexts are different. He can "exist" in one context and "not exist" in another context.

Unfortunately, that's not the same idea that's being posited here.

Can God both exist and not exist in the same context at the same time?

...

unassimilated

"God is beyond logic". Who's logic? Are'nt we suppose to be created in gods image? Would'nt we have the same logic? (Oh wait that makes sense.) :banghead:

John A. Broussard

The typical answer given to me by theists (which is really a variant of 'god is beyond logic') is "You can't measure god with a human yardstick."

Bobinius

You can't measure nothingness and non-existence with a human yardstick either.

If we can't understand what God means, then 'God exists' is a nonsense, it means nothing.

JHONY5

If one believe's in god then the thinking is always within the parameters of him being so powerful that he can accomplish the impossible. That his relationship to time is outside of our own i.e. the whole human yardstick thing. 1 mile is always 1mile in distance. If it takes me 60 minutes to walk a mile and it takes god only 1 second than he has still traveled 1 mile. He is bound to the same laws of physic's even if he can manipulate them. Let's say for instance you have challenged god to a car race. Does his omnipotence transend the vehicle? NO. He will either win or lose depending soley on the capabilities of the car he is in. If god is beyond logic than there is no other conclusion than that god can not exist inside of this universe. //////////JHONY5////////////

John A. Broussard

This needs a lot of explaining. If he can accomplish the impossible, then he is most certainly not bound by the laws of physics. After all, he made those laws. Surely he can change them if he so wishes.

JHONY5

If he were to change the laws of physic's then would these change's not then apply to all being's? Say for instance he greatly decreased gravity in order to accomplish a certain "divine" task. That rule would then apply to me, right. Or, for the sake of arguement, he only changed these laws for the instant he needed the change. Then the after effect's of this brief change would have left our world, our universe, in ruin. He would have to exit this universe (multi-verse...HA) in order to display his omnipotence. Which ,in my opinion, would make the point moot. I fail to see how even the all-mighty god can escape these laws. I do not find the idea of an all powerful god logical anymore than I find logic in the bible. If it looks like bullshit, it probably is bullshit. ////////////JHONY5///////////

Gallie

Ah, boys and girls, it's time to get out of your sand box and play with the big boys. A new thread just demolished strong and weak atheism. You better check it out here: MOTION = RECREATION :thumbs: