Freethought & Rationalism Archive

haight · 01-17-2007, 11:42 PM

I found this on a website that i stumbled across and as I've never seen it presented to a Christian before,would like to do so now.
I find it amazing that Christians exist today when even an argument as basic as this totally discredits Jesus Christ "the son of god".
How would you (the Christian) like to explain this argument and break it down to be false, inevitably proving your God to be true? because if you can't even refute this with your Bible i think it's time to face facts...Jesus ain't coming back.

Please,no "God did it/said it so it's true type answers ok!!!

Quote:

DID JESUS LIE?

Louis W. Cable

Lie not one to another. Colossians 3:9

Jesus promised his followers in no uncertain terms that he would soon return in glory and vindication. He vowed to redeem their suffering and to establish the Kingdom of God* on earth.. To heighten their expectations he assured his followers that most of them would live to see all of this come to pass. His failure to do so places Christians on the horns of a serious dilemma by exposing him as a false prophet.

Jesus’ hollow promises work to seriously undermine his credibility. If the credibility of Jesus is undermined, so is that of the church. If, on the other hand, it is argued that the gospels and Paul reported incorrectly, does that not seriously undermine the credibility of the New Testament? Even if one were to argue that God knowingly inspired the contradictions, errors and broken promises in the New Testament, as have some, why should anyone believe any of its teachings if so much of it could be false?

In Matthew 7:15, the famous Sermon on the Mount, Jesus warns his listeners to, “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” A "false prophet" is defined in Deuteronomy 18:21-22 where it reads: "And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously. Thou shalt not be afraid of him". Did Jesus ever predict something which didn't happen? The answer is a resounding yes. He in fact told several bald-faced lies. For a listing of them, see, Did Jesus Lie? on this web site.

In Matthew 7:19 we read, “Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire". Here Jesus condemns false prophets to hell. Since he himself qualifies as a false prophet isn't he saying that he should go to hell?

The following quotes confirm that Jesus deliberately lied to his followers thereby leading them into false expectations.

Matthew 10:23 - When giving instructions to his apostles as to just how they are to go about spreading his message Jesus says,." . . . for truly I say unto you, you shall not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

Matthew 16:28 - Jesus says to his disciples, "There are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Matthew 24:33-34 - After prophesying a wide assortment of events including the second coming, Jesus said to his disciples, " . . . when you shall see all these things, know that it (the 2nd coming) is near, even at the door. This generation shall not pass till these things be fulfilled." He was obviously referring to the contemporary generation.

Matthew 26:64 - When brought before Caiaphas, the Chief Priest, Jesus said to him, "I tell you, hereafter you shall see the Son of Man . . . coming on the clouds of heaven." According to this the second coming was to happen during Caiaphas' lifetime.

Mark 9:1 - Jesus said to the people and to his disciples, ”Verily I say unto you, that there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Luke 21:27-28 -Jesus said to the congregation, “And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”

Luke 21:32 - Jesus said, again to the congregation, “This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.”

John 5:47 - Jesus says, "If you do not believe his [Moses'] writings, how will you believe my words?" To Christians Moses' writings are the five books of the Pentateuch, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. In them is given the law of Moses which includes, among other things, the hallowed Ten Commandments. Jesus either ignored or actually broke many of them as we have seen.

John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and my Father are one." Here Jesus claims to be God.

John 18:20 - When being questioned by the high priest, Jesus answered, "I spake openly to the world; I have ever** taught in the synagogues and in the temple, and in secret have I said nothing." Here he told two lies. For example, the Sermon on the Mount, perhaps his most famous sermon was delivered neither in a synagogue nor in the temple but on a mountain top (Matthew 5:1.) In Matthew 16:20 he warns his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah. In other words, Keep it a secret.

Revelation 22:7, 12, 20 - Jesus says, "Behold, I come quickly."

Almost two thousand years have passed, all those who knew him are long dead, yet Jesus’ promise of a quick return remains unfulfilled. I think it’s time to acknowledge that either the New Testament Gospels are fiction or that Jesus flat-out lied***.

According to Deuteronomy 13:1-5 if an aspiring prophet's words do not come to pass, and if he seeks to turn people from the true God and to another, namely himself, and claims to be equal with God, then he is a false prophet and should be put to death. Therefore, in light of the above didn’t Jesus deserve the death sentence? __________________________________________________ ______.

*The Kingdom of God is a euphemism for an independent Israel free from Roman occupation.

** In NSRV "ever" is translated as "always" thereby including all occasions at all times.

***See also Are The Gospels True?, New Testament forgeries , Did Jesus Ever Live? and The Sermon on the Mount on this web site.

LINK

Tiberius · 01-18-2007, 12:06 AM

Oh, this is easy. Merely redefine the words in the Bible to twist the meanings of what is written to allow the truth we see in the world around us mesh with the text of the Bible, no matter how ridiculous the reinterpretation is.

haight · 01-18-2007, 12:43 AM

LOL,i want to hear some real human rationality come from a Christian but i never seem to get it.

To the Christians,
Atheists are open to evidence for God?So show us the evidence as this whole argument is as simple as that,if you are right....prove it!

Evidence is unquestionable and physical, not theories that you say are true because they are in the Bible,I don't believe the Bible.In fact it is the Bible i am questioning.
If i was trying to get a conviction for a murderer do you think the best evidence i would present is the very murderer i don't believe?

Because this is what you Christians are doing,we say we don't believe in God and you quote us Bible verses.In your mind God wrote the bible so its real, but in ours God does not exist so could not have wrote the Bible,hence,men wrote the bible and men of faith are irrational, hence the Bible is highly improbable.*

*I use improbable rather than the more accurate Impossible because i am not arrogant enough to "know" my views are infallible.

Just thought I'd add this to the argument for clarity.

Tiberius · 01-18-2007, 02:48 AM

You'll never get it. the closest you'll get is examples of what I posted.

In fact, I'll lay this down right now:

If any believer of any deity-based religion can produce an arguement for the existence of God that has no refutation, I will convert to that religion and no longer be an atheist.

How's that for motivation?

haight · 01-18-2007, 05:35 AM

I know,I know!
They seem to scatter when this topic is brought up,its like a pesticide and they the pest on humanity.

A fine example is
this guy at CF, read through the post......he is unbelievable.
It truly boggles the mind how brainwashed these people are,yet they see it as TRUTH.
It actually disturbs me the amount of false,irrational and fanatical crap they believe......and i once thought people didn't come this stupid.

gregor · 01-18-2007, 06:04 AM

Two standard responses are:

1. Preterism - The argument that the Olivet discourse was fulfilled when the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. This was Jesus' return.

2. "Future time" - The promise that at some vague point in the future, those seeing the first signs of a second coming would be around to see the final return.

Tiberius · 01-18-2007, 06:05 AM

The trouble is that people will believe any rubbish as long as you give them a halfway plausible reason for it.

LINK

Ben C Smith · 01-18-2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Matthew 24:33-34 - After prophesying a wide assortment of events including the second coming, Jesus said to his disciples, " . . . when you shall see all these things, know that it (the 2nd coming) is near, even at the door. This generation shall not pass till these things be fulfilled." He was obviously referring to the contemporary generation.

Interestingly, on this forum it is often the skeptics who believe that this generation applies to some other entity besides the people contemporary with Jesus in the gospels.

Ben.

jakejonesiv · 01-18-2007, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Interestingly, on this forum it is often the skeptics who believe that this generation applies to some other entity besides the people contemporary with Jesus in the gospels.

Ben.

But it leads to the same conclusion.

If Jesus were being portrayed to predict these things shortly in the future of his alleged time, then Jesus (as portrayed) was wrong.
If the author were prediciting things shortly in the author's future, then the author was wrong.

Either way, after 1900 odd years the prophecy is bogus.

Jake Jones IV

Atheos · 01-18-2007, 09:31 AM

Using fallacies to attempt to justify one's position always weakens one's position. Although the arguments quoted in the OP seem reasonable on the surface, they are too strongly worded. It's an example of fallacious argument largely because it presents possible interpretations of ambiguous passages as if there were no other possible interpretations available.

Since apologists can produce any number of alternate interpretations for all of these passages the argument doesn't hold much water even from a purely objective viewpoint. It's certainly not going to convince believers in Jesus that Jesus was lying.

Quote:

Jesus promised his followers in no uncertain terms that he would soon return in glory and vindication.

This is the assertion. The author builds on this assertion for a couple of paragraphs. He then attempts to prove it with the following quotes:

Quote:

Matthew 10:23 - " . . . for truly I say unto you, you shall not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

Certainly ambiguous here. Doesn't necessarily have to be the 2nd coming.

Quote:

Matthew 16:28 - "There are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Now we get into a whole new level of ambiguity. Did Jesus mean to imply that this kingdom would include a throne on earth, or could Jesus be ruling already from a throne in Heaven?

Quote:

Matthew 24:33-34 - After prophesying a wide assortment of events including the second coming, Jesus said to his disciples, " . . . when you shall see all these things, know that it (the 2nd coming) is near, even at the door. This generation shall not pass till these things be fulfilled." He was obviously referring to the contemporary generation.

And apologetic responses will quickly follow that (a) Jesus is ruling in heaven now, so all that did happen or (b) "this generation" might refer to one that begins to exist at some point in the future, witnesses the first things prophecied and lives long enough to witness the conclusion of these things. There are many other possible interpretations.

Quote:

Matthew 26:64 - When brought before Caiaphas, the Chief Priest, Jesus said to him, "I tell you, hereafter you shall see the Son of Man . . . coming on the clouds of heaven." According to this the second coming was to happen during Caiaphas' lifetime.

... or Caiaphas would be among those raised up in the general resurrection to witness Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven (I Thess 4:16-17). Or Caiaphas was alive when Jesus began ruling over his "spiritual kingdom" in heaven. Or ...

Quote:

Mark 9:1 - Jesus said to the people and to his disciples, ”Verily I say unto you, that there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Which some will argue happened in Acts 2....

Quote:

Luke 21:27-28 -Jesus said to the congregation, “And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.”

Luke 21:32 - Jesus said, again to the congregation, “This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.”

... which *might* mean he was addressing those particular people, or it *might* mean that "they" refers to a generation living sometime in the distant future...

Quote:

Revelation 22:7, 12, 20 - Jesus says, "Behold, I come quickly."

Which can be interepreted as "all of a sudden, and without warning".

Quote:

*The Kingdom of God is a euphemism for an independent Israel free from Roman occupation.

That's the interpretation some people have for it. Others believe it to be a "spiritual kingdom" and that Jesus never intended to set foot on the earth again.

I agree that it looks like these are unfulfilled prophecies. Honestly I believe that they are. But I also know the rationalizations. I lived by them for over 35 years, preaching and defending them for 16 years. The arguments make valid points but they overstate the case. They don't prove Jesus lied. They make it look that way, but there is plenty of weasel wiggle room. :devil:

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-18-2007, 12:06 AM	#2
Tiberius Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 756	Oh, this is easy. Merely redefine the words in the Bible to twist the meanings of what is written to allow the truth we see in the world around us mesh with the text of the Bible, no matter how ridiculous the reinterpretation is.

01-18-2007, 12:43 AM	#3
haight Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NW Posts: 137	LOL,i want to hear some real human rationality come from a Christian but i never seem to get it. To the Christians, Atheists are open to evidence for God?So show us the evidence as this whole argument is as simple as that,if you are right....prove it! Evidence is unquestionable and physical, not theories that you say are true because they are in the Bible,I don't believe the Bible.In fact it is the Bible i am questioning. If i was trying to get a conviction for a murderer do you think the best evidence i would present is the very murderer i don't believe? Because this is what you Christians are doing,we say we don't believe in God and you quote us Bible verses.In your mind God wrote the bible so its real, but in ours God does not exist so could not have wrote the Bible,hence,men wrote the bible and men of faith are irrational, hence the Bible is highly improbable.* *I use improbable rather than the more accurate Impossible because i am not arrogant enough to "know" my views are infallible. Just thought I'd add this to the argument for clarity.

01-18-2007, 02:48 AM	#4
Tiberius Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 756	You'll never get it. the closest you'll get is examples of what I posted. In fact, I'll lay this down right now: *If any believer of any deity-based religion can produce an arguement for the existence of God that has no refutation, I will convert to that religion and no longer be an atheist.* How's that for motivation?

01-18-2007, 05:35 AM	#5
haight Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NW Posts: 137	I know,I know! They seem to scatter when this topic is brought up,its like a pesticide and they the pest on humanity. A fine example is this guy at CF, read through the post......he is unbelievable. It truly boggles the mind how brainwashed these people are,yet they see it as TRUTH. It actually disturbs me the amount of false,irrational and fanatical crap they believe......and i once thought people didn't come this stupid.

01-18-2007, 06:04 AM	#6
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Two standard responses are: 1. Preterism - The argument that the Olivet discourse was fulfilled when the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. This was Jesus' return. 2. "Future time" - The promise that at some vague point in the future, those seeing the first signs of a second coming would be around to see the final return.

01-18-2007, 06:05 AM	#7
Tiberius Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 756	The trouble is that people will believe any rubbish as long as you give them a halfway plausible reason for it. LINK

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.