Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rob117 · 01-25-2007, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

(Ezekiel's interest in the sons of Zadok should place him not too distantly from the time when those Dead Sea Scrolls that deal with the sons of Zadok.)

spin

You're assuming literary interest in the sons of Zadok existed only during one period.

spin · 01-25-2007, 08:12 AM

Political, not literary interest. The sons of Zadok are the leaders of the community. And there is another, more specific, marker: Ezekiel's calendar is (luni-)solar, which makes it as new as the modifications in the Enochic Astronomical Book, which institutes the extra four days to make the calendar that of the Dead Sea Scrolls, replacing the Persian 360-day calendar with a 364-day calendar. (There are other indicators as well.) What you were responding to was a passing comment, so it glided over much.

spin

hatsoff · 01-25-2007, 09:12 AM

I don't see any problem with the pillars passage. If the earth is shaken, then its pillars (and other structures) will fall. It's not saying that the earth is held up by pillars.

John Kesler · 01-25-2007, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

I don't see any problem with the pillars passage. If the earth is shaken, then its pillars (and other structures) will fall. It's not saying that the earth is held up by pillars.

You need to consider all of the passages which speak about the earth's pillars rather than putting a spin on one verse in isolation:

Quote:

1 Samuel 2:7-8
7 Yahweh makes poor and makes rich;he brings low, he also exalts. 8 He raises up the poor from the dust;he lifts the needy from the ash heap, to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are Yahweh's, and on them he has set the world.

Quote:

Psalm 75:3
3 When the earth totters, with all its inhabitants,it is I who keep its pillars steady.

Quote:

Job 9:5-6
he who removes mountains, and they do not know it, when he overturns them in his anger; 6 who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble;

Quote:

1 Enoch 57:1-2
1 And it came to pass after this that I saw another host of wagons, and men riding thereon, and 2 coming on the winds from the east, and from the west to the south. And the noise of their wagons was heard, and when this turmoil took place the holy ones from heaven remarked it, and the pillars of the earth were moved from their place...

hatsoff · 01-25-2007, 01:27 PM

Perhaps the author of 1 Samuel believed the earth was set up on pillars, but from the passage it sounds to me like he was simply using imaginitive imagery to say that God is responsible for civilization. From where I sit, the other passages don't at all imply that pillars hold up the earth.

John Kesler · 01-25-2007, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

Perhaps the author of 1 Samuel believed the earth was set up on pillars, but from the passage it sounds to me like he was simply using imaginitive imagery to say that God is responsible for civilization. From where I sit, the other passages don't at all imply that pillars hold up the earth.

Did you take the time to read the page that I linked to in a previous post? If you do, you will see quotations from scholarly works, which say that the Hebrews conceived of earth as being supported by pillars or foundations:

Quote:

Stadelmann, Luis I J, SJ The Hebrew Conception of the World – A Philological and Literary Study (Rome: Pontifical Biblical Institute, 1970):

On pillars: “Similar to the conception that the heaven was thought to be constructed on pillars, there is abundant evidence that confirms the generally accepted view that the earth is firmly fixed in its place. The idea of the stability of the earth finds expression in the foundations, cornerstones, and pillars upon which the structure of the earth is said to be built.” (p126)

Quote:

Myers, Allen C (Ed) The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1987):
The earth, with Canaan at its centre (Ps 74.12), was believed to be one mass of land (cf the ‘ends of the earth’ (Ps 65.5) or its ‘four corners’ (Isa 11.12)) surrounded by an ocean. It rested on pillars (1 Sam 2.8; Job 9.6; Ps 75.3) or on firm foundations (Ps 104.5; but cf Job 26.7).” (p298)

Quote:

Freedman, David Noel (Ed) The Anchor Bible Dictionary (New York: Doubleday, 1992):
“On the whole, Israel shared the world view of the ancient Near East...The vault of heaven rests on the earth (Amos 9.6; cf. 2 Sam 22.8: ‘the foundations of the heavens’ = the earth) which in turn is firmly set on pillars (1 Sam 2.8) or foundations (Isa 24.18; 40.21; Jer 31.37; Mic 6.2, etc).

To this list, I can add The Interpreter's Bible, volume 4, page 400, commentary on Psalm 75:3:

Quote:

Pillars: The same word is used of the earth's pillars only once elsewhere (Job 9:6), but the idea that the earth rests upon fundations of some sort is found in 18:15; 82:5; 104:5; 1 Sam. 2:8; Isa. 24:18; Mic. 6:2; Jer. 31:37; Job 38:4-6 (cf. 26:6-7); Prov. 8:29...

I think that the evidence speaks for itself.

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01-25-2007, 08:12 AM	#12
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Political, not literary interest. The sons of Zadok are the leaders of the community. And there is another, more specific, marker: Ezekiel's calendar is (luni-)solar, which makes it as new as the modifications in the Enochic Astronomical Book, which institutes the extra four days to make the calendar that of the Dead Sea Scrolls, replacing the Persian 360-day calendar with a 364-day calendar. (There are other indicators as well.) What you were responding to was a passing comment, so it glided over much. spin

01-25-2007, 09:12 AM	#13
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	I don't see any problem with the pillars passage. If the earth is shaken, then its pillars (and other structures) will fall. It's not saying that the earth is held up by pillars.

01-25-2007, 01:27 PM	#15
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	Perhaps the author of 1 Samuel believed the earth was set up on pillars, but from the passage it sounds to me like he was simply using imaginitive imagery to say that God is responsible for civilization. From where I sit, the other passages don't at all imply that pillars hold up the earth.

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