mountainman

So there are two Origens, one a Platonist and the other a Christian.

Now go and look at the scholarship surrounding the question whether there were one or two Ammonias's - the teacher of Origen. You will find the same thing - a Platonist Ammonias and a Christian Ammonias.


What are these DUPLICATIONS doing in the 3rd century?

stephan huller

You are really something. Did you actually read Andrews 'probablys'. The more 'probablys' in a sentence the weaker the argument gets. I found 384 examples of someone named Ὠριγένης in the existing material from antiquity so there certainly were other Origens. Does this mean this figure from 260 CE is not our Origen? I don't know and I don't care. It is possible that this was Origen. It really doesn't matter to the question at this thread. The only reason you seize on this 'other Origen' is because you want to twist that into a proof that the Christian Origen never existed. This is ======= madness. You can't get there from here. There might have been Origen the farmer in one village and an Origen the cobbler in another and so and so. There still was a famous Christian Platonist name Origen who wrote the hundred + books associated with him.

The point of this thread is not what mountainman believes to be true about Origen but why did his text of the gospels change. Please stop spreading your ====== propaganda at this thread.

mountainman

Did you actually read Porphyry's Egyptian 'de Abstinentia' II.47 by M. J. Edwards, who also also disambiguates the "Pagan Origen" and the "Christian Origen"?

stephan huller

Please Toto split this nonsense off into another thread. None of this has anything to do with the question of why Origen changed his gospels. Please stop spreading your ========= propaganda here.

mountainman

Are you serious? Scholars such as MJ Edwards are disambiguating a pagan and a christian Origen in the 3rd century. We have Origenist controversies in the 4th and 5th centuries. And you propose to ignore this data in a thread you named yourself as " Is Using Conspiracy Theories to Explain Third Century Christianity So Unreasonable? " The question of why Origen changed his gospels may be related to the apparent FACT that there were two Origens in the 3rd century.

stephan huller

But you think Christianity was invented in the fourth century. You can't believe that a tradition which didn't exist in the third century had an Origen switching gospels. As such you should having nothing to say here and these posts should be removed and you should be silenced in this thread.

mountainman

The logic is that a tradition which did not exist in the 3rd century may have been invented via fabrication in the 4th. I accept that there was a lineage of Platonist theologians in the 3rd century which included Ammonias and Origen. My position is that the Platonist Origen was also a Hebrew academic and that he authored the Hexapla, and was responsible for all commentary related to the LXX and Plato.

I am exploring the scenario in which Eusebius inherits the library of this Platonist Jewish theologian Origen in the 4th century. Eusebius simply oversees the fabrication of additional books in the name of Origen which were related to commentary on the New Testament, and to comments about the existence of certain non canonical texts.

This scenario immediately explains the apparent duplication of Origens (and the duplications of Ammonias, Anatolius, etc) in the 3rd century and the Origenist controversies about the authentic books of Origen in the 4th and 5th century.

Is Using Conspiracy Theories to Explain Third Century Christianity So Unreasonable?

Toto

You link in your big essay gives "HTTP Error 404.0 - Not Found
The resource you are looking for has been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable."

GakuseiDon

Pete, I find your ideas on the implications of two Origens fascinating. On the one hand, popularity of names go in cycles, so I don't see having two philosophers with the same name around the same time as too incredible. But that they both have teachers with the same names also? That does start to become incredible.

I read your essay, though, and it is disappointing. It seems to hinge around rubbishing the reputation of Eusebius generally, rather than focussing on specifics. If you could tighten your argument around the Origen/Ammonius (Christian) and Origen/Ammonius (Platonist) relationships, I for one would be eager to read more.

stephan huller

Horigenes entry at http://www.trismegistos.org

Name details
Greek: Ὡριγένης
Latin:
Egyptian:
Coptic: ϩⲱⲣⲓⲕⲉⲛ
Other:
Sex: Male
Language: Greek
Bibliography:
Attestations in papyri
This name is attested 378 time(s) in papyri: » show attestations
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There are 11 variants of this name:
Variant Language Text attestations
1. Ὠριγένης Greek 350
2. Ὠριγενὶς Greek 13
3. Ὁριγένης Greek 4
4. Ὡρειγένης Greek 3
5. Ὡριγένιος Greek 2
6. Ὡριγένις Greek 1
7. Ὡρογένης Greek 1
8. Ϩⲱⲣⲓⲕⲉⲛ Coptic 1
9. ⲱⲣⲓⲅⲉⲛⲏ Coptic 1
10. Ορειγενης Greek 1
11. Ωριγηνης Greek 1

Compare for instance:

Clemens

Name details
Greek: Κλήμενς
Latin: Clemens
Egyptian: Klỉms
Coptic:
Other:
Sex: Male
Language: Latin
Bibliography:
Attestations in papyri
This name is attested 114 time(s) in papyri: » show attestations
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There are 8 variants of this name:
Variant Language Text attestations
1. Κλήμης Greek 66
2. Κλήμενς Greek 37
3. Κλῆμις Greek 5
4. Κλημες Greek 3
5. Klỉms Egyptian 1
6. Κλήμεντ Greek 1
7. Κλημηνς Greek 1
8. Κλήμεντι Greek

Markion
Name details
Greek: Μαρκίων
Latin:
Egyptian:
Coptic:
Other:
Sex: Male
Language: mixture: Greek derivation of Latin name
Bibliography:
Attestations in papyri
This name is attested 9 time(s) in papyri: » show attestations
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Variant Language Text attestations
1. Μαρκίων Greek 9

Marcus

Name details
Greek: Μᾶρκος
Latin: Marcus
Egyptian: Mȝrks
Coptic: ⲙⲁⲣⲕⲟⲥ
Other:
Sex: Male
Language: Latin
Bibliography: H. Solin, in O. Sallomies (ed.), The Greek east in the Roman context, Papers and monographs of the Finnish Institute at Athens 7 (2001), p. 19§ ( (for Athens)
Attestations in papyri
This name is attested 339 time(s) in papyri: » show attestations
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There are 10 variants of this name:
Variant Language Text attestations
1. Μᾶρκος Greek 196
2. ⲙⲁⲣⲕⲟⲥ Coptic 105
3. ⲙⲁⲣⲕ Coptic 16
4. ⲙⲁⲣⲕⲟⲩ Coptic 6
5. Μαρκο Greek 6
6. ⲙⲁⲣⲕⲟ Coptic 5
7. ⲙⲁⲣⲕⲱⲥ Coptic 2
8. ⲙⲁⲣⲅⲉ Coptic 1
9. ⲙⲁⲣⲕⲟⲩⲥ Coptic 1
10. Mȝrks Egyptian 1

That Origen should out number the references to Marcus is especially surprising given (a) how common the Latin name was in antiquity and (b) the fact that Marcus was the patron saint of Alexandrian and Egyptian Christianity. By comparison:

Paulus

Name details
Greek: Παῦλος
Latin: Paulus
Egyptian:
Coptic: ⲡⲁⲩⲗⲟⲥ
Other:
Sex: Male
Language: Latin
Bibliography:
Attestations in papyri
This name is attested 909 time(s) in papyri: » show attestations
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There are 22 variants of this name:
Variant Language Text attestations
1. Παῦλος Greek 585
2. ⲡⲁⲩⲗⲟⲥ Coptic 205
3. ⲡⲁⲩⲗⲉ Coptic 84
4. ⲡⲁⲩⲗ Coptic 5
5. ⲡⲁⲩⲗⲓ Coptic 3
6. ⲡⲁⲩⲗⲟ Coptic 3
7. ⲡⲁⲩⲗⲟⲩ Coptic 3
8. Παυλο Greek 3
9. Παυλως Greek 3
10. ⲡⲁⲟⲩⲗⲉ Coptic 2
11. ⲡⲁⲩ Coptic 2
12. Παυλους Greek 2
13. Παυλλος Greek 1
14. ⲡⲁⲟⲩⲗ Coptic 1
15. ⲡⲁⲟⲩⲗⲏ Coptic 1
16. ⲡⲁⲟⲩⲗⲓ Coptic 1
17. ⲡⲁⲩ[ Coptic 1
18. ⲡⲁⲩⲗⲏ Coptic 1
19. ⲡⲉⲩⲗⲟⲥ Coptic 1
20. Παυλες Greek 1
21. Παυλλ Greek 1
22. Paullus Latin 1

Petros

Name details
Greek: Πέτρος
Latin:
Egyptian:
Coptic: ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟⲥ
Other:
Sex: Male
Language: Greek
Bibliography:
Attestations in papyri
This name is attested 827 time(s) in papyri: » show attestations
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There are 19 variants of this name:
Variant Language Text attestations
1. ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟⲥ Coptic 395
2. Πέτρος Greek 340
3. ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲉ Coptic 50
4. ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟⲩ Coptic 12
5. ⲡⲉⲧⲣ Coptic 7
6. ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲟ Coptic 5
7. ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲩ Coptic 4
8. Πέτρε Greek 3
9. ]ⲧⲣⲟⲥ Coptic 2
10. Βετρος Greek 1
11. Πετροος Greek 1
12. ⲡⲉⲡⲣⲟⲥ Coptic 1
13. ⲡⲉⲣⲧⲣⲟⲥ Coptic 1
14. ⲡⲉⲧⲣ[ Coptic 1
15. ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲏ Coptic 1
16. ⲡⲉⲧⲣⲱⲥ Coptic 1
17. ⲡⲉⲧⲧⲣⲟⲥ Coptic 1
18. ⲡⲧⲣⲟⲥ Coptic 1
19. ⲡⲉⲧⲟⲣⲟⲥ Coptic 1

Simon (m.)

Name details
Greek: Σίμων
Latin:
Egyptian: Symn
Coptic: ⲥⲉⲙⲉⲱⲛ
Other:
Sex: Male
Language: Semitic: Hebrew
Bibliography: NB p. 524; DNB p. 927 Semen
Attestations in papyri
This name is attested 174 time(s) in papyri: » show attestations
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There are 19 variants of this name:
Variant Language Text attestations
1. Σίμων Greek 124
2. ⲥⲉⲙⲉⲱⲛ Coptic 16
3. ⲥⲩⲙⲉⲱⲛ Coptic 14
4. Συμεων Greek 5
5. Σεμέων Greek 3
6. ⲥⲓⲙⲱⲛ Coptic 3
7. Symn Egyptian 1
8. Smnȝ Egyptian 1
9. Συμεωνιος Greek 1
10. ⲥⲉⲙⲓⲱ Coptic 1
11. ⲥⲏⲙⲉⲱⲛ Coptic 1
12. ⲥⲓⲙⲉⲱⲛ Coptic 1
13. ⲥⲓⲙⲏⲱⲛ Coptic 1
14. ⲥⲓⲙⲓⲟⲛ Coptic 1
15. ⲥⲓⲙⲓⲱ Coptic 1
16. ⲥⲓⲙⲟⲛ Coptic 1
17. ⲥⲓⲙⲟⲩⲛ Coptic 1
18. Σίμμων Greek 1
19. Smn Egyptian 1

Maria

Name details
Greek: Μαρια
Latin:
Egyptian:
Coptic:
Other:
Sex: Female
Language: Semitic: Hebrew
Bibliography:
Attestations in papyri
This name is attested 157 time(s) in papyri: » show attestations
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1. Μαρια Greek 157

Ioannes

Name details
Greek: Ἰωάννης
Latin:
Egyptian: Yḥnn
Coptic: ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ
Other:
Sex: Male
Language: Semitic: Hebrew
Bibliography: NB p. 521
Attestations in papyri
This name is attested 1725 time(s) in papyri: » show attestations
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There are 85 variants of this name:
Variant Language Text attestations
1. Ἰωάννης Greek 807
2. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 308
3. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 245
4. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 84
5. Ἰωάνης Greek 38
6. ⲓⲱⲁ Coptic 38
7. ⲓⲱ Coptic 31
8. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 21
9. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲛⲟⲩ Coptic 14
10. Ἰοάννης Greek 8
11. ⲓⲱⲁⲛ Coptic 8
12. ⲉⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 7
13. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛ Coptic 7
14. Ἰωάνις Greek 5
15. Ἰωάννας Greek 5
16. ⲉⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 5
17. ⲓⲁⲛⲛⲉ Coptic 5
18. ⲓⲱϩ Coptic 5
19. ⲓⲁϩⲁⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 4
20. ⲓⲱ... Coptic 4
21. Ιοανης Greek 3
22. Ἰάνης Greek 3
23. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲛ Coptic 3
24. ⲟⲩϩⲁⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 3
25. Ἰωϩάννης Coptic 3
26. ⲓϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 2
27. ⲓⲁⲛⲉ Coptic 2
28. ⲓⲁⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 2
29. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲉⲥ Coptic 2
30. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲏ Coptic 2
31. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲛⲉ Coptic 2
32. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲛⲉⲥ Coptic 2
33. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲛⲟ Coptic 2
34. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲛⲩ Coptic 2
35. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲩ Coptic 2
36. Ἰωάνιος Greek 1
37. Ειωαννης Greek 1
38. Ιωαννι Greek 1
39. Εἰοάννις Greek 1
40. Ἰωάννις Greek 1
41. Ἰώνης Greek 1
42. Ἰωαννίος Greek 1
43. Ἰώννης Greek 1
44. Ϩⲁⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 1
45. ⲉⲓϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 1
46. ⲉⲓⲁϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 1
47. ⲉⲓⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 1
48. ⲉⲓⲱ Coptic 1
49. ⲉⲓⲱⲁⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 1
50. ⲏϩⲁⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 1
51. ⲓϩⲁⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 1
52. ⲓⲁϩⲁⲛⲉⲥ Coptic 1
53. ⲓⲁϩⲁⲛⲏ Coptic 1
54. ⲓⲁϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 1
55. ⲓⲁⲁⲛⲉⲥ Coptic 1
56. ⲓⲁⲛⲛⲏ Coptic 1
57. ⲓⲁⲛⲛⲓ Coptic 1
58. ⲓⲁⲛⲛⲟⲩ Coptic 1
59. ⲓⲁⲛⲛⲩ Coptic 1
60. ⲓⲁⲱ Coptic 1
61. ⲓⲉϩⲁⲛⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 1
62. ⲓⲟϩⲁⲛⲛ Coptic 1
63. ⲓⲟⲩϩⲁⲛⲏⲥ Coptic 1
64. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛ... Coptic 1
65. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛ[ Coptic 1
66. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲏⲏⲥ Coptic 1
67. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲓ Coptic 1
68. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲓⲥ Coptic 1
69. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲙⲥ Coptic 1
70. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲛ Coptic 1
71. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲛ[ Coptic 1
72. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲛⲓⲥ Coptic 1
73. ⲓⲱϩⲁⲛⲛⲥⲏⲥ Coptic 1
74. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲉ Coptic 1
75. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲏ Coptic 1
76. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲓⲟⲩ Coptic 1
77. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲛⲏ Coptic 1
78. ⲓⲱⲁⲛⲟⲩ Coptic 1
79. ⲓⲱⲛⲛⲟ Coptic 1
80. ⲱϩⲁⲛ Coptic 1
81. ...ⲱⲁⲛ... Coptic 1
82. Ιουαννης Greek 1
83. Yḥnn Egyptian 1
84. ⲓⲁⲛⲛⲁ Coptic 1
85. Ιωηάννης Greek 1

Iustus

Name details
Greek: Ἰούστος
Latin: Iustus
Egyptian:
Coptic: ⲓⲟⲩⲥⲧⲁ
Other:
Sex: Male
Language: Latin
Bibliography:
Attestations in papyri
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There are 12 variants of this name:
Variant Language Text attestations
1. Ἰούστος Greek 166
2. ⲓⲟⲩⲥⲧⲁ Coptic 30
3. ⲓⲟⲩⲥⲧⲉ Coptic 13
4. ⲓⲟⲩⲥⲧⲟⲥ Coptic 5
5. ⲓⲟⲩⲥⲧⲟⲩ Coptic 4
6. Ἰόστος Greek 1
7. ⲓⲟⲩⲥⲧ... Coptic 1
8. ⲓⲟⲩⲥⲧⲁⲥ Coptic 1
9. ⲓⲟⲩⲥⲧⲓ Coptic 1
10. ⲓⲟⲩⲧ Coptic 1
11. ⲓⲱⲩⲥⲧⲉ Coptic 1
12. Ιουτος Greek 1
Tatianus

Name details
Greek: Τατιανός
Latin: Tatianus
Egyptian:
Coptic:
Other:
Sex: Male
Language: Latin
Bibliography:
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Variant Language Text attestations
1. Τατιανός Greek 33

This clearly demonstrates how popular the name Origen really was outranking many Biblical names including Maria, Simon, Justus, Tatian etc. The fact that there were 'Origens' running around at the time Origen the Platonist Christian was active in no way impugns the evidence that there really was a Platonist Christian named Origen or any of the other nonsense that is typically promoted by Pete.