Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jayrok · 02-16-2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Jesus said of His crucifixion: "Behold we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. They will scourge Him and Kill Him. And the third day He will rise again."

This comes from, among others, Luke 18:31-33:

31Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. 33On the third day he will rise again."

What is the book, chapter and verse in the Hebrew scriptures that a prophet writes that "The son of man will be handed over the the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. And on the third day he will rise again." ?

Thanks in advance.

Archer · 02-16-2008, 03:26 PM

Sorry sugarhitman but in this thread you have been OWNED.

Just think if you put all that energy you waste on this site and did something constructive with it.It's such a waste.:banghead:

arnoldo · 02-16-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Jesus said of His crucifixion: "Behold we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. They will scourge Him and Kill Him. And the third day He will rise again."

This comes from, among others, Luke 18:31-33:

31Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. 33On the third day he will rise again."

What is the book, chapter and verse in the Hebrew scriptures that a prophet writes that "The son of man will be handed over the the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. And on the third day he will rise again." ?

Thanks in advance.

Your Welcome.

Quote:

Who hath given credence to that which we heard? And the arm of Jehovah, On whom hath it been revealed?

2 Yea, he cometh up as a tender plant before Him, And as a root out of a dry land, He hath no form, nor honour, when we observe him, Nor appearance, when we desire him.

3 He is despised, and left of men, A man of pains, and acquainted with sickness, And as one hiding the face from us, He is despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains -- he hath carried them, And we -- we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace is on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.

6 All of us like sheep have wandered, Each to his own way we have turned, And Jehovah hath caused to meet on him, The punishment of us all.

7 It hath been exacted, and he hath answered, And he openeth not his mouth, As a lamb to the slaughter he is brought, And as a sheep before its shearers is dumb, And he openeth not his mouth.

8 By restraint and by judgment he hath been taken, And of his generation who doth meditate, That he hath been cut off from the land of the living? By the transgression of My people he is plagued,

9 And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich are his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor is deceit in his mouth.

10 And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed -- he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.

11 Of the labour of his soul he seeth -- he is satisfied, Through his knowledge give righteousness Doth the righteous one, My servant, to many, And their iniquities he doth bear.

12 Therefore I give a portion to him among the many, And with the mighty he apportioneth spoil, Because that he exposed to death his soul, And with transgressors he was numbered, And he the sin of many hath borne, And for transgressors he intercedeth.

arnoldo · 02-16-2008, 05:17 PM

And this:

Quote:

any bulls have surrounded me, Mighty ones of Bashan have compassed me,

13 They have opened against me their mouth, A lion tearing and roaring.

14 As waters I have been poured out, And separated themselves have all my bones, My heart hath been like wax, It is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 Dried up as an earthen vessel is my power, And my tongue is cleaving to my jaws.

16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.

17 I count all my bones -- they look expectingly, They look upon me,

18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

arnoldo · 02-16-2008, 05:26 PM

and here;

Quote:

and Moses saith unto Joshua, 'Choose for us men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to-morrow I am standing on the top of the hill, and the rod of God in my hand.' 10 And Joshua doth as Moses hath said to him, to fight with Amalek, and Moses, Aaron, and Hur, have gone up to the top of the height; 11 and it hath come to pass, when Moses lifteth up his hand, that Israel hath been mighty, and when he letteth his hands rest, that Amalek hath been mighty. 12 And the hands of Moses are heavy, and they take a stone, and set it under him, and he sitteth on it: and Aaron and Hur have taken hold on his hands, on this side one, and on that one, and his hands are stedfast till the going in of the sun; 13 and Joshua weakeneth Amalek and his people by the mouth of the sword.

There is more, but you can find those for yourself

sugarhitman · 02-16-2008, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house (city) is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see ME UNTIL THE TIME COMES when you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." In other words Jerusalem will be destroyed because it rejected it's Messiah, now compare it to this:

"Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, saying 'If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground, and they will not leave in you ONE STONE UPON ANOTHER, because you did not know the time of your visitation."

Jesus here is referring to the destruction of the city by the Romans because Israel rejected and crucified Him compare with Daniel 9. "And after the sixty-two weeks MESSIAH SHALL BE CUT OFF (KILLED), BUT NOT FOR HIMSELF. AND THE PEOPLE (ROMANS) OF THE PRINCE (ANTI-CHRIST) WHO IS TO COME SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE TEMPLE." Two things are mentioned here the Messiah would be killed and the city and temple destroyed by the Romans. Jesus said of His crucifixion: "Behold we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. They will scourge Him and Kill Him. And the third day He will rise again."

In the Gog Magog war of Ezekiel (Aremegeddon, The judgement against the Anti-Christ and the Gentiles.) We read that Gog comes against a restored Israel: "After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountians of of Israel, WHICH HAD LONG BEEN DESOLATE...."Ezekiel 38. The longest desolation of Israel was for 1900 years after Rome destroyed them which ended in 1948.

The prophets and Jesus are clear.

1. Israel rejects their Messiah
2. Israel destroyed by Rome
3. Israel restored after a long desolation
4. Anti-Christ and Gentiles come against Israel
5. The Messiah returns

You didnt understand because you did not study. Jesus knew that Israel would be destroyed and desolated by Rome and that the desolation would be long. He was not talking about the then generation (because they would be dispersed by Rome)....but the generation in which the signs appear in....mainly when the "Abomination that causes desolation" appears "standing in the Holy Place" Now the abomination can not do this if Israel is not a nation. And neither can the signs take place if Israel is destroyed. :wave:

Do you even read the bible or do you just visit apologetic websites?

You mentioned Daniel 9:

Dan 9:25-27: "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

You are contradicting yourself.

You are saying the people (Rome) of the ruler (anti-christ) came to destroy the city and temple. You said two things were mentioned there, but conveniently left out the third thing mentioned... the anti-christ:

He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven. The anti-christ will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and suffering... and on the wing of the TEMPLE he will set up an abomination, blah blah blah..

If Rome destroying the temple in AD 70 fulfilled this from Daniel and the ruler was the anti-christ... Then that same ruler was supposed to set up a covenant for a time. Then in the middle he was to put an end to sacrifice.

AFAIK there hasn't been a sacrifice in the temple of jerusalem since the first century.

If the "anti-christ" is supposed to put an end to sacrifice and even more importantly, set up anything on the WING of the TEMPLE, then he'd better build another temple first because there is no temple in Jerusalem. Just a muslim mosque.

Unless you are claiming the anti-christ was the Roman emporer in the first century. If that's the case you have other problems.

You pick and choose which passages you want to use but leave out details that damage your reasoning.

Quote:

but the generation in which the signs appear in....mainly when the "Abomination that causes desolation" appears "standing in the Holy Place" Now the abomination can not do this if Israel is not a nation. And neither can the signs take place if Israel is destroyed

ok, you are saying that Israel was restored in 1948 and now only waiting for the anti-christ to appear and "stand in the holy place" in Jerusalem. So this is still future. But what you omit is the portion of Daniel 9 that says this anti-christ will set up an abomination on the "wing of the Temple".

There is no temple in Jerusalem. You're putting the cart before the horse.

"The people of the PRINCE WHO IS TO COME shall destroy the city and the Temple." Note the seperation of the deeds, and the seperation of the people from the prince. This shows that the people of the prince would appear before he does. This does not refer to a Roman Emperor in the 1st century, but a prince who appears after they destroy Jerusalem. And for as a Temple read this: "And he shall plant the TABERNACLES of his palace between the seas in the glorious HOLY MOUNTAIN; yet he shall come to his end." Daniel 11

The Beast may have the temple built allowing the Jews to reestablish their system of sacrifice, but will break this covenant when he will have established himself and temporary peace. I believe this temple can be built anywhere in the HOLY MOUNTIAN. :wave:

DBT · 02-16-2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBT

Isn't there a tricky bit?

''I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” (NIV Matthew 16:27-28)

Read that very carefully. The only people standing there were the diciples. "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death UNTIL they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Note the word UNTIL. Which means they would die after they see His coming. Christians know that when Jesus returns those who remain alive will be with the Lord forever (see Paul Thessolonians) and will not see death. Later some of the diciples such as John did indeed see Jesus return....in visions...and died afterwards. Daniel also saw His return. The word UNTIL OR BEFORE is the hint.

I've read it, but I still don't see the presence of the word 'until' in that verse. Saying 'until' rather than 'before' would imply that those present were destined to die in the moment of His return...and also...the visions of the diciples cannot be compared to a momentous event such as the ''Son of Man coming in His Kingdom''

Pragmatista · 02-16-2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Israel was restored in 1948, nations are trying to seize Israel's land, there is a dispute over Jerusalem, World Goverment is taking place, Europe (the nations who made up the Roman Empire) are unifying. We are that generation. :wave:

Every age has something that could be identified as the restoration of Israel. The other things will all still be happening 2000 years from now, so I am not holding my breath.

premjan · 02-16-2008, 09:33 PM

I think this is the first age where Israel was literally restored. There is also literally a dispute over Jerusalem. World government has not yet arisen though there is a hint of it in the UN. The Roman empire is somewhat unified under the EU. I would say there is some time left.

As for Armageddon, I think the Muslims have the same myth, so it looks like the Christians and Muslims will fight this battle, with the victor very much a matter of interpretation.

sugarhitman · 02-16-2008, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBT

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Read that very carefully. The only people standing there were the diciples. "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death UNTIL they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Note the word UNTIL. Which means they would die after they see His coming. Christians know that when Jesus returns those who remain alive will be with the Lord forever (see Paul Thessolonians) and will not see death. Later some of the diciples such as John did indeed see Jesus return....in visions...and died afterwards. Daniel also saw His return. The word UNTIL OR BEFORE is the hint.

I've read it, but I still don't see the presence of the word 'until' in that verse. Saying 'until' rather than 'before' would imply that those present were destined to die in the moment of His return...and also...the visions of the diciples cannot be compared to a momentous event such as the ''Son of Man coming in His Kingdom''

Maybe because you read the bibles that largely depend on the works of Westcott and Hort. All the modern bibles except KJV depend on these two infidels. NIV NKJV RSV etc. contains many errors in the NT. The KJV has "until" while some of the others has "before" but both words do imply a death afterwards....And no christian dies after they witness the coming of Christ. Critics would do well to actually read the words before they make accusations. :wave:

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02-16-2008, 03:26 PM	#42
Archer Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Midwest Posts: 130	Sorry sugarhitman but in this thread you have been OWNED. Just think if you put all that energy you waste on this site and did something constructive with it.It's such a waste.:banghead:

02-16-2008, 09:33 PM	#49
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	I think this is the first age where Israel was literally restored. There is also literally a dispute over Jerusalem. World government has not yet arisen though there is a hint of it in the UN. The Roman empire is somewhat unified under the EU. I would say there is some time left. As for Armageddon, I think the Muslims have the same myth, so it looks like the Christians and Muslims will fight this battle, with the victor very much a matter of interpretation.

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