Sven

Since there were no takers in this thread, I decided to start this again as a new thread.

You want to see contradictions? OK, let's go (NIV, all emphasis mine):

1 John 2:9-12 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

versus

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple."
[Jesus speaking]

Combining Luke 14:26 with 1 John 3:15, we see that one has to be a murderer to be Jesus disciple. Which is, BTW, a nice contradiction to Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder." (directly out of your cherished 10 commandments)

Boomeister

I've heard the Christian apologetic argument that this is a translation error or something. That Jesus really didn't mean "hate" but meant "love Jesus more than your family." These are the same people that say the bible in inerrant. Either Jesus said it or he didn't. They can't have it both ways.
I haven't heard a good explanation for this contradiction. Hopefully a Christian will step up to the plate and answer this one for you. Good luck.

JTurtle

Well here's the thing. The emphasis was not so much on hating your family. Obviously that is not what Jesus teaches, because he says to love others like he loves us. However, Jesus was teaching the importance of not allowing anything to take the place of Jesus. If one loves their family more than they love Jesus, they are not his true follower. He used this to emphasize the importance to placing him above all else. You just twisted it to make it sound like a contradiction. However, if you truely understand Scripture then you understand what is being said....love

Jonathan

Vinnie

Objections that assume the most rigid form of wooden literalism are not very compelling. This is skeptics annotated bible nonsense. My advice: find a real error that can actually be demonstrated.

And yes, in biblical idiom it is commonly believed that "hate" can mean love less. Scoffing at this notion without providing any reasons why is not a valid way of dismissing it.

Vinnie

Paul5204

Sven:

The word translated "hate" also means "to put aside." So a perfectly acceptable translation is: "If any man comes to me and does not put aside his own father and mother, and wife and children, and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Vinnie

Them ost common interpretation I have found:

Jesus "may" be saying that ethical requirements in the kingdom entail loving your brother and loving your neighbor as thyself. The golden rule standard. Yet the kigdom takes prcedence over all else. If your family gets in the way of the kingdom you have to choose. God and the kingdom first is the verdict.

Vinnie

Sven

Vinnie: I only adressed the die-hard literalists (Thugpreacha seems to be one of those), sorry for not making this clear. Regarding other possible interpretations see below.

And if we go by the plain meaning of words, this is a contradiction - especially in the light of the other teachings of Jesus, JTurtle! If you use the other teachings to explain away the plain meaning of words, you do the text no favor. Don't you see the problem here? If a contradiction arises, you wave it away, saying it has to be consistent with the other teachings. This is proving inerrancy by assuming inerrancy, nothing more, nothing less.

OK, let's look at the not-so-literal interpretations. Both Vinnie and Paul5204 provided other translations. Let me first say, I'm willing to accept your interpretation if you can also provide evidence that you're right - and the bible translators were mostly wrong.

After all, at least the NLT seems to agree with you: "If you want to be my follower you must love me more than[1] your own father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, more than your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple."

But this doesn't change the fact that most other translations have "hate" in this verse. Is there something in the original Greek (?) which suggest that the NLT-version is more accurate?

Gregg

And along comes JTurtle who uses this exact argument. You're a prophet!

Sven

Just two points I wanted to address directly:

Why is quoting verbatim out of the NIV "twisting"?

Since Vinnie and Paul seem to have a reasonable explanation for this verse (which they have yet to substantiate) and if we ignore some other verses in the NT, we could perhaps agree that your statement is true for the NT. But if we include the OT, I see no possibility at all to defend that the god depicted there is a god of love.

Magdlyn

One explanation:

The "hate your family" line is hyperbole, typical of the writing style of the times. I picked his up in the notes and essays in the Oxford Annotated Bible.

and/or:

There are 2 standards in the Greek Scriptures, one for wandering prophet types like Jesus and his road warriors. Another for more settled yet devout followers, such as people of means like Jos of Arimathea and Mary of Bethany, who monetarily suported Jesus and the 12.


This type of distinction was seen in southern France with the Cathari: the "parfaits," who were ascetic celibates, and the laypeople, who had familes and lower standards of worship and lifestyle, while still being considered devout.

And I got this from The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man.