Freethought & Rationalism Archive

PhilosopherJay · 03-12-2011, 03:48 PM

I was going to add this to the "Mark 16:9-20 as Forgery or Fabrication" by Richard Carrier, Ph.D. (2009) thread. That thread argues rather persuasively that the L.E. of Mark (16.9-10) was forged long after the short ending (16:1-8). I wanted to take the argument one step further and argue that we can clearly see the order of the developments of the earliest post-crucifixion tales. The order is 1) John: 21.2-21.5, 2) Mark: 16.1-8 and 3) Matthew: 28:16-20.

It got a little long, so I put it on my blog

Comments there or here are welcome.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Vivisector · 03-13-2011, 07:45 AM

Good stuff, Jay.

Where do you fit Luke into the scheme? Luke (where he isn't recognized, inexplicably disappears, etc.) sounds almost like more of a "ghost story" than John (in which Jesus eats fish, invites Thomas to touch him, etc.).

Cheers,

V.

mountainman · 03-13-2011, 11:13 AM

Hi Philosopher Jay,

Thanks very much for drawing this together. I may never read a Phantom Comic in the same way ever again. I enjoyed reading your article very much, and especially its conclusion:

Quote:

We may say that the original gospel concluded with this fantastic ghost story, as good as anything written by Edgar Allan Poe. The resurrection stories did not improve it, but added different dimensions to it.

Comparing the gospel writers to people like Poe is quite fasciniating. According to WIKI:

Quote:

Poe and his works influenced literature in the United States and around the world, as well as in specialized fields, such as cosmology and cryptography.

Poe's interest in Cosmology runs in close parallel to the gospel authors' interest in "Heaven", and Poe's interest in cryptography closely matches the Gospel authors' consistent use and interest in the codified "nomina sacra" evidenced in the earliest Greek manuscripts.

Quote:

Poe and his work appear throughout popular culture in literature, music, films, and television. A number of his homes are dedicated museums today.

Perhaps the Dura-Europos "domus ecclesia" belonged to one of the gospel authors?

Best wishes,

Pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

I was going to add this to the "Mark 16:9-20 as Forgery or Fabrication" by Richard Carrier, Ph.D. (2009) thread. That thread argues rather persuasively that the L.E. of Mark (16.9-10) was forged long after the short ending (16:1-8). I wanted to take the argument one step further and argue that we can clearly see the order of the developments of the earliest post-crucifixion tales. The order is 1) John: 21.2-21.5, 2) Mark: 16.1-8 and 3) Matthew: 28:16-20.

It got a little long, so I put it on my blog

Comments there or here are welcome.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

PhilosopherJay · 03-13-2011, 03:08 PM

Hi Vivisector,

Thanks. I think Luke is trying to match up John's ending with his account in Acts. As you note, the Road to Emmaus does have the Jesus as Ghost flavor of the John Breakfast. There is a moment of recognition after they eat which is parallel to what happens in John when Jesus eats breakfast with the disciples.

Quote:

Luke:
24.30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them. 24.31 And their eyes were opened and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight...

24.39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have." 24.40 24.41 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 24.42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 24.43 and he took it and ate before them.

Quote:

John
21.9 When they got out on land, they saw a charcoal fire there, with fish lying on it, and bread. 21.10 Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish that you have just caught." 21.11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three of them; and although there were so many, the net was not torn. 21.12 Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." Now none of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord. 21.13 Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and so with the fish.

Note that in John Jesus takes bread and fish and gives it to the disciples. Luke divides up the action. He has Jesus giving bread to a couple of disciples and then has the eleven disciples give fish to Jesus.

I assume that the Emmaus Road story was a separate story that Luke mixed with his own Jerusalem appearance story.
I think Luke added the Jesus disappearance only in order to get him to suddenly appear to the disciples in Jerusalem.

The ending of Luke, I think belongs with the Emmaus story. In other words.

Quote:

24.28 So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He appeared to be going further, 24.29 but they constrained him, saying, "Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent." So he went in to stay with them.24.30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them...
24.50 Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 24.51 While he blessed them, he parted from them, and was carried up into heaven. 24.52 And they returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 24.53 and were continually in the temple blessing God.

[also here probably belongs 24.32 They said to each other, "Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the scriptures?"]

The Road to Emmaus tale recites John 20.1-18, Mary and Simon finding the empty tomb and Mary encountering Jesus, so Emmaus must have been written after that, or conversely, this meeting of Mary and the ghostly Jesus must be before Emmaus.

The Jesus in Jerusalem-tales in John 20.19-31 seem to emphasize the theme of resurrection and belief. They are probably the last gospel stories.

So the order of writing of the appearances would be.
1) John: 21.2-21.5, Ghost Story
2) Mark: 16.1-8 Empty Tomb
3) Matthew: 28:16-17. Jesus Galilee Ghost
4) John 20.1-18 (Mary races Simon to tomb, She finds Jesus) Ghost Story
5) Luke: 24.13-30, 24.50-53 (Emmaus) Ghost Story
6)Luke 24.31-49 (Jerusalem Disciples Resurrection Story)
7)John 20.19-31 (Jerusalem disciples Resurrection Story)
8) Luke 24.1-12 Empty Tomb (Luke rewrites Mary at the Tomb to eliminate Mary's meeting with Jesus. If he had rewritten this before writing Emmaus, the Emmaus scene wouldn't have described the John empty tomb scene, but his own empty tomb scene)
9) Mark Long Ending (16.9-20)
10) Matthew 28.18

Regarding Matthew, note:

Quote:

28.16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them

28.17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted

28.18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 28.19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 28.20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

There is no connection between 28.17 and 28.18. The original ending of Matthew would have been "Some doubted." This is obviously earlier than the-disciples-were-all-convinced appearances that John and Luke use. At some point this ambiguous ending was found embarrassing and the Dogmatic advertisement that is Matthew 28.18 was put in. Perhaps last of all.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivisector

Good stuff, Jay.

Where do you fit Luke into the scheme? Luke (where he isn't recognized, inexplicably disappears, etc.) sounds almost like more of a "ghost story" than John (in which Jesus eats fish, invites Thomas to touch him, etc.).

Cheers,

V.

PhilosopherJay · 03-13-2011, 03:47 PM

Hi Pete,

Yes, it might be interesting to match up Poe especially with the writer of the Gospel of John.

John:

Quote:

1.5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 1.6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 1.7 He came for testimony, to bear witness to the light, that all might believe through him. 1.8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness to the light. 1.9 The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. 1.10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not.

Poe:

Quote:

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
" 'Tis some visitor," I muttered, "tapping at my chamber door;
Only this, and nothing more."

I suspect that frequent use of alcoholic beverages is something else the two writers had in common.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Hi Philosopher Jay,

Thanks very much for drawing this together. I may never read a Phantom Comic in the same way ever again. I enjoyed reading your article very much, and especially its conclusion:

Quote:

We may say that the original gospel concluded with this fantastic ghost story, as good as anything written by Edgar Allan Poe. The resurrection stories did not improve it, but added different dimensions to it.

Comparing the gospel writers to people like Poe is quite fasciniating. According to WIKI:

Poe's interest in Cosmology runs in close parallel to the gospel authors' interest in "Heaven", and Poe's interest in cryptography closely matches the Gospel authors' consistent use and interest in the codified "nomina sacra" evidenced in the earliest Greek manuscripts.

Perhaps the Dura-Europos "domus ecclesia" belonged to one of the gospel authors?

Best wishes,

Pete

snip

mountainman · 03-14-2011, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

... [...]...

I assume that the Emmaus Road story was a separate story that Luke mixed with his own Jerusalem appearance story.

... [...]...

So the order of writing of the appearances would be.

1) John: 21.2-21.5, Ghost Story
2) Mark: 16.1-8 Empty Tomb
3) Matthew: 28:16-17. Jesus Galilee Ghost
4) John 20.1-18 (Mary races Simon to tomb, She finds Jesus) Ghost Story
5) Luke: 24.13-30, 24.50-53 (Emmaus) Ghost Story
6)Luke 24.31-49 (Jerusalem Disciples Resurrection Story)
7)John 20.19-31 (Jerusalem disciples Resurrection Story)
8) Luke 24.1-12 Empty Tomb (Luke rewrites Mary at the Tomb to eliminate Mary's meeting with Jesus. If he had rewritten this before writing Emmaus, the Emmaus scene wouldn't have described the John empty tomb scene, but his own empty tomb scene)
9) Mark Long Ending (16.9-20)
10) Matthew 28.18

Hi Philosopher Jay,

The Emmaus appearance becomes very important and significent if the texts of (5) or later (above list) were assembled after or during the rule of the Roman Emperor Trajan (98 to 117 CE), who is reported to have crucified a few thousand Jews of that city.

The Holy Ghost

According to WIKI, the Holy Ghost is mentioned 95 times in the new testament. This would lend weight to your argument that the Jesus Ghost story is at the basis of the new testament.

Quote:

The Holy Spirit (prior English language usage: the Holy Ghost (from Old English gast, “spirit”) is a major Christian term (but not uniquely Christian) generally held to be equivalent to the Spirit of God in Judaism and the Holy Spirit in Islam. The phrase "Holy Spirit" is found 3 times in the Hebrew Bible and around 95 times in the New Testament,[1] while the phrase Spirit of God is found around 27 times in total.[2]

To what extent is the Jesus Ghost Story, the Holy Ghost Story? Would a monopoly on the market share of Ghost stories have assisted in making the NT more popular with Greek minds? A Holy Ghost is a handy thing to have around the place, after all. If the Jesus Ghost Story was the latest innovative branch of centuries of Holy Ghost stories, it would explain why it is thought that the "early Christians" gathered together in graveyards. Context is everything.

Best wishes,

Pete

Vivisector · 03-14-2011, 07:42 AM

Hi again, Jay.

Does your hypothesis require the assumption that Mark is dependent on John (at least in this regard), or simply that the earliest of freely-circulating stories of resurrection appearances is that appearing in John?

Cheers,

V.

PhilosopherJay · 03-14-2011, 02:21 PM

Hi Vivisector,

At the moment, I'm just looking at the post-crucifixion appearances/tales as free circulating but interdependent texts.

I don't have a general hypothesis on the relationships of the four gospels, except I tend to see them as complex where one section of a gospel might contain early material and another section might contain something written later.

For example, Matthew 28:16-17, which is just a simple declaration that some apostles did and some apostles didn't believe is earlier than the Jesus meets the apostles in Jerusalem scenes in John and Luke. However, the very next line Matthew 28:18, where he sends them out baptizing in the name of the father, son and holy ghost, is very late. The formula "the father, the son and holy ghost" is not in Justin Martyr nor Irenaeus or Tertullian, so we may take it that this passage comes from the Third century at the earliest.

I think we find the closest thing to the original gospel ending in John:

Quote:

19.28 After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfil the scripture), "I thirst." 19.29 A bowl full of vinegar stood there; so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth. 19.30 When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
19.31 Since it was the day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the sabbath (for that sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 19.32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him; 19.33 but when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 19.34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 19.35 He who saw it has borne witness--his testimony is true, and he knows that he tells the truth--that you also may believe.

Note that the appearance of blood and water subtly indicates that Jesus was a God after all.

Mark, in rewriting the scene, has made this idea of Jesus' divinity more explicit by having a Roman centurion declare it:

Quote:

15.33And when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 15.34And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "E'lo-i, E'lo-i, la'ma sabach-tha'ni?" which means, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" 15.35And some of the bystanders hearing it said, "Behold, he is calling Elijah." 15.36And one ran and, filling a sponge full of vinegar, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down." 15.37And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed his last. 15.38And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. 15.39And when the centurion, who stood facing him, saw that he thus breathed his last, he said, "Truly this man was the Son of God!"

Mark has made the scene perhaps more theatrical in this way.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivisector

Hi again, Jay.

Does your hypothesis require the assumption that Mark is dependent on John (at least in this regard), or simply that the earliest of freely-circulating stories of resurrection appearances is that appearing in John?

Cheers,

V.

PhilosopherJay · 03-14-2011, 02:27 PM

Hi Pete,

Yep. Ghost stories are a lot of fun. I think the addition of the ghost tales made the tragedy of Jesus a whole lot more fun and a whole lot more popular.

Sincerely,

Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

... [...]...

I assume that the Emmaus Road story was a separate story that Luke mixed with his own Jerusalem appearance story.

... [...]...

So the order of writing of the appearances would be.

1) John: 21.2-21.5, Ghost Story
2) Mark: 16.1-8 Empty Tomb
3) Matthew: 28:16-17. Jesus Galilee Ghost
4) John 20.1-18 (Mary races Simon to tomb, She finds Jesus) Ghost Story
5) Luke: 24.13-30, 24.50-53 (Emmaus) Ghost Story
6)Luke 24.31-49 (Jerusalem Disciples Resurrection Story)
7)John 20.19-31 (Jerusalem disciples Resurrection Story)
8) Luke 24.1-12 Empty Tomb (Luke rewrites Mary at the Tomb to eliminate Mary's meeting with Jesus. If he had rewritten this before writing Emmaus, the Emmaus scene wouldn't have described the John empty tomb scene, but his own empty tomb scene)
9) Mark Long Ending (16.9-20)
10) Matthew 28.18

Hi Philosopher Jay,

The Emmaus appearance becomes very important and significent if the texts of (5) or later (above list) were assembled after or during the rule of the Roman Emperor Trajan (98 to 117 CE), who is reported to have crucified a few thousand Jews of that city.

The Holy Ghost

According to WIKI, the Holy Ghost is mentioned 95 times in the new testament. This would lend weight to your argument that the Jesus Ghost story is at the basis of the new testament.

Quote:

The Holy Spirit (prior English language usage: the Holy Ghost (from Old English gast, “spirit”) is a major Christian term (but not uniquely Christian) generally held to be equivalent to the Spirit of God in Judaism and the Holy Spirit in Islam. The phrase "Holy Spirit" is found 3 times in the Hebrew Bible and around 95 times in the New Testament,[1] while the phrase Spirit of God is found around 27 times in total.[2]

To what extent is the Jesus Ghost Story, the Holy Ghost Story? Would a monopoly on the market share of Ghost stories have assisted in making the NT more popular with Greek minds? A Holy Ghost is a handy thing to have around the place, after all. If the Jesus Ghost Story was the latest innovative branch of centuries of Holy Ghost stories, it would explain why it is thought that the "early Christians" gathered together in graveyards. Context is everything.

Best wishes,

Pete

03-12-2011, 03:48 PM	#1
PhilosopherJay Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 2,014	John Ending - Jesus Ghost Story is First Post Death Tale I was going to add this to the "Mark 16:9-20 as Forgery or Fabrication" by Richard Carrier, Ph.D. (2009) thread. That thread argues rather persuasively that the L.E. of Mark (16.9-10) was forged long after the short ending (16:1-8). I wanted to take the argument one step further and argue that we can clearly see the order of the developments of the earliest post-crucifixion tales. The order is 1) John: 21.2-21.5, 2) Mark: 16.1-8 and 3) Matthew: 28:16-20. It got a little long, so I put it on my blog Comments there or here are welcome. Warmly, Philosopher Jay

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03-13-2011, 07:45 AM	#2
Vivisector Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: KY Posts: 415	Good stuff, Jay. Where do you fit Luke into the scheme? Luke (where he isn't recognized, inexplicably disappears, etc.) sounds almost like more of a "ghost story" than John (in which Jesus eats fish, invites Thomas to touch him, etc.). Cheers, V.

03-14-2011, 07:42 AM	#7
Vivisector Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: KY Posts: 415	Hi again, Jay. Does your hypothesis require the assumption that Mark is dependent on John (at least in this regard), or simply that the earliest of freely-circulating stories of resurrection appearances is that appearing in John? Cheers, V.

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