Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Shadowy Man · 06-04-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Keep in mind that the golden-calf incident isn't the only time that Moses had to convince Yahweh not to destroy the Israelites.

What do you mean? Moses did the dirty work!

Quote:

Originally Posted by King James Bible (Exodus 32)

26Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

27And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

28And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

Three thousand!

Leelee · 06-04-2008, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

The god of the OT does change forms regularly. In Genesis, he is much closer to a typical Greek god, with all the attendant emotional baggage (He is also just one of many gods; that is, the God of the Hebrews -- and one who is jealous, temperamental, error-prone, cruel and irrational).

It's only later in the OT that He transforms into the kind of god Christians like to portray.

I agree. The God in the early OT is very fallible. According to Genesis 18:20-21, he had to descend from Heaven to Sodom and Gomorrah to know if things were really as bad as the outcry indicated.

Waning Moon Conrad · 06-05-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwithdream

Exodus 32:10 said that G-d would make Moses into a great nation, and Moses was a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so G-d would not have broken the covenant with them.

Why do you spell "God" with a dash? The Torah actually spells the name YHVH. This is the actual name which is actually written in the Torah. Every Jew knows to pronounce it ADNI, so what's the point of a dash when it's not even a case of "God" being English for YHVH?

juergen · 06-05-2008, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwithdream

Exodus 32:10 said that G-d would make Moses into a great nation, and Moses was a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so G-d would not have broken the covenant with them.

Then why did Moses use Yahweh's covenant promise as an argument in successfully changing God's mind?

The idea of "Moses and his descendants" seems to be a new direction that Yahweh has already decided to take, forgoing his original idea of saving the lot (his people too, no more and no less than Moses' descendants) out of Egypt.

It's pretty clear within the context of the story of Abraham and Isaac that Isaac's sacrifice was a test for Abraham. There's nothing in the context of this one that would indicate any kind of test for Moses.

Interesting how God tells Moses to leave him alone. It's almost as if God can't do the things he wants to if there's someone pleading to him. Moses is the bigger guy and decides to not let Yahweh get away with it, and knows just how to make him change his mind.

sugarhitman · 06-05-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwithdream

Exodus 32:10 said that G-d would make Moses into a great nation, and Moses was a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so G-d would not have broken the covenant with them.

I was about to say the same thing.

Now how could this skeptic missed that?

juergen · 06-05-2008, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwithdream

Exodus 32:10 said that G-d would make Moses into a great nation, and Moses was a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so G-d would not have broken the covenant with them.

I was about to say the same thing.

Now how could this skeptic missed that?

Then why did Moses use Yahweh's covenant promise as an argument in successfully changing God's mind?

John Kesler · 06-05-2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwithdream

Exodus 32:10 said that G-d would make Moses into a great nation, and Moses was a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so G-d would not have broken the covenant with them.

I was about to say the same thing. Now how could this skeptic missed that?

And how could you, as a Christian, have missed Galatians 3:16?

Quote:

16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

And what tribe was "Christ" descended from? Hebrews 7:14 gives the answer (see also Luke 3:33 and Matthew 1:3).

Quote:

14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah...

Was Moses a descendant of Judah? No, he was not.

Quote:

Exodus 2:
1 Now a man from the house of Levi went and married a daughter of Levi. 2 The woman conceived and bore a son; and when she saw that he was beautiful, she hid him for three months. 3 But when she could hide him no longer, she got him a wicker basket and covered it over with tar and pitch Then she put the child into it and set it among the reeds by the bank of the Nile.

So explain, please, how the promises spoken to Abraham and his seed, which Apostle Paul said was referring to Jesus, a descendant of Judah, could have been fulfilled if Yahweh destroyed all the descendants of Judah.

Craigart14 · 06-05-2008, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elevator

I have also heard the defense that you need the Holy Spirit to understand the bible right, and, of course, we as non-believers lack the Holy Spirit and so are painfully unable to read the bible correctly (at which point it is necessary to point out Psalm 119:130).

That's some catch, that catch-22.

Craig

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