Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshonq · 01-28-2008, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Arnoldo, why do you keep ignoring the historical context in which the books of the Bible were written?

Ezekiel was written during the time of Nebuchadnezzar (and possibly edited since). .

Do you have any historical proof of such editing? Is so why wasn't Alexander *edited* into the Book of Ezekiel?

We know that other books were edited and/or stitched together from multiple authors. If you want to claim that Ezekiel is not the product of that kind of process, then the burden of proof is on YOU to show that it is the unedited work of a single author.

Jack the Bodiless · 01-28-2008, 08:08 AM

Biblical scholar Gustave Holscher claims that certain passages of the book of Ezekiel were later added in the Persian period (I don't know why: maybe textual analysis).

But, Arnoldo, you're still not addressing the context. If we assume that Ezekiel WAS all written when it claims to be: then the end of the Exile would be a future event when it was written. Therefore you still have the usual problem: when Ezekiel says that the Jews would return to Israel never to be driven out again, nothing in the text says "...except for next time, when they'll be driven out again and will be gone for 2000 years".

arnoldo · 01-28-2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Can we trust archaelogical evidence that the book of Ezekiel is accurate?

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore..._delivery.aspx

Highly questionable, considering:

1. your link talks about a piece of archaeology related to Jeremiah, not Ezekiel;

2. getting the name of a Babylonian official correct is not the same thing as proving prophetic ability

In any event Jeremiah prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebby. The Jews didn't believe him and put him in jail. Nebby took him out of jail. This is historical fact.

Quote:

Now Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon gave orders about Jeremiah through Nebuzaradan the captain of the bodyguard, saying, 12 “Take him and look after him, and do nothing harmful to him, but rather deal with him just as he tells you.” Jeremiah 39:14

Johnny Skeptic · 01-28-2008, 08:13 AM

Message to arnoldo: If you decided that you wanted to protect John Smith from being attacked by his enemies because John Smith was your friend, would you injure or kill him? Of course you wouldn't, which invites the question "If God wanted to protect Jews from their enemies, why did he sometimes injure or kill them with storms and harmful microorganisms? With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history, and he has done so indiscriminately without any regard for a person's worldview. It is utter nonsense for anyone to assume that God would protect Jews from being injured or killed by humans, but not from being injured or killed by anything else.

arnoldo · 01-28-2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Biblical scholar Gustave Holscher claims that certain passages of the book of Ezekiel were later added in the Persian period (I don't know why: maybe textual analysis).

But, Arnoldo, you're still not addressing the context. If we assume that Ezekiel WAS all written when it claims to be: then the end of the Exile would be a future event when it was written. Therefore you still have the usual problem: when Ezekiel says that the Jews would return to Israel never to be driven out again, nothing in the text says "...except for next time, when they'll be driven out again and will be gone for 2000 years".

Here it is: Amos 9:13

Quote:

“Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 “I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-28-2008, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

God has given all sorts of miracles in the Old Testament and yet Israel frequently backslid. For example when Moses took the Jews out of Egypt they witnessed many miracles and yet once out in the wilderness they worshiped a golden calf and wished to return to Egypt.

Do you believe that God's protection of the Jews was conditional upon good behavior?

There is no reason for us to discuss the historicity of the Exodus since it did not happen. If the Ten Plagues had happened, that would have been the end of Egypt as a major power in the Middle East. Obviously, that did not happen.

Why didn't God inspire some indisputable prophecies?

Johnny Skeptic · 01-28-2008, 07:56 PM

Message to arnoldo: God broke his promise to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Egypt. At the very least, the prophecy is misleading, and would have weakened the faith of some Jews. No Jew who lived during Ezekiel's time saw the Tyre prophecy fulfilled, nor did any Jew for several more generations. If anything, that would have weakened the faith of some Jews, especially since Ezekiel called Nebuchadnezzar "a king of kings." In addition, when Alexander finally defeated Tyre, some Jews must have wondered why Ezekiel did not mention Alexander.

If Ezekiel had mentioned Alexander, would that have strengthed the faith of Jews who lived back then, and the faith of Christians who live today?

Consider the following post that Will.L made today at the GRD Forum:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will.L

(Moderator) Almost unanimously, the Jewish Rabbis agreed that when the second temple was destroyed and the diaspora began, that it was because of their immorality and thus God felt that they had broken their side of the agreement. Many Jews (ESPECIALLY orthodox Jews living in Israel) do not recognize the Israeli state as they do not believe the covenant has been reclaimed yet (plus, they weren't supposed to go back until the Messiah came).

What is your opinion of that?

2 Samuel 7:10 says that Jews will have a homeland of their own where no one will bother them. That is not going to happen, especially since the Bible says that there will always be wars and rumors of wars in this life, and that in the last days, nation will rise against nation. No rational person would believe that Jews will have a homeland of their own where no one will bother them. God deceived the Jews. There is no doubt whatsoever that Old Testament Jews believed that one day Jews would have a homeland of their own, IN THIS LIFE, NOT IN THE NEXT LIFE, where no one would bother them.

Christians believe that Micah 5:2 says that a messiah would come who would become ruler of Israel. Jesus did not become ruler of Israel. This means that God needlessly mislead the Jews. If God had inspired Micah to write that the messiah would rule a heavenly kingdom, and heal people, and be crucified, and rise from the dead after three days, and that Pontius Pilate would become Governor of Palestine, how many Jews do you think would have rejected Jesus?

makerowner · 01-28-2008, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Biblical scholar Gustave Holscher claims that certain passages of the book of Ezekiel were later added in the Persian period (I don't know why: maybe textual analysis).

But, Arnoldo, you're still not addressing the context. If we assume that Ezekiel WAS all written when it claims to be: then the end of the Exile would be a future event when it was written. Therefore you still have the usual problem: when Ezekiel says that the Jews would return to Israel never to be driven out again, nothing in the text says "...except for next time, when they'll be driven out again and will be gone for 2000 years".

Here it is: Amos 9:13

Quote:

“Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
And make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 “I will also plant them on their land,
And they will not again be rooted out from their land
Which I have given them,”
Says the LORD your God.

The book of Amos dates to ~750 BC, meaning that this 'prophecy' has already been falsified by the Babylonian Exile and the diaspora under the Romans. Though you may be interested to know that this passage (9:11-15) is considered to be an interpolation, so maybe it was written after the Babylonian Exile. So if you admit that it was written by who the Bible says it was, you can get away with only one falsification of the prophecy, instead of two.

Sheshonq · 01-29-2008, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Highly questionable, considering:

1. your link talks about a piece of archaeology related to Jeremiah, not Ezekiel;

2. getting the name of a Babylonian official correct is not the same thing as proving prophetic ability

In any event Jeremiah prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebby.

"In any event" you got ahead of yourself and didn't even bother to read your source carefully. It isn't the first time you've done that.

Quote:

The Jews didn't believe him and put him in jail. Nebby took him out of jail. This is historical fact.

It is? Prove it.

arnoldo · 01-29-2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Many Bible prophecies indicate that Jerusalem will be a source of concern for all nations.

That is easily explained by the facts that the partition of Palestine is a self-fulfilled prophecy, and that the Middle East has the largest oil reserves in the world. If the Arab-Israel conflict was happening in the middle of a remote Australian desert that had few natural resources, most nations would not care about the conflict.

Ok so if I'm understanding your logic note the following steps.

1. God never predicted the future accurately in the Old Testament,ie, all of the land of Israel was never given to Abraham.
2. The State of Israel that is in existence is the result of a bona fide self fulfilled prophecy. That is military and politics are the only factors that led to the State of Israel coming into existence in 1948.
3. These "prophecies" would have come true even if the Bible was never written? :huh:

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01-28-2008, 08:08 AM	#872
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Biblical scholar Gustave Holscher claims that certain passages of the book of Ezekiel were later added in the Persian period (I don't know why: maybe textual analysis). But, Arnoldo, you're still not addressing the context. If we assume that Ezekiel WAS all written when it claims to be: then the end of the Exile would be a future event when it was written. Therefore you still have the usual problem: when Ezekiel says that the Jews would return to Israel never to be driven out again, nothing in the text says "...except for next time, when they'll be driven out again and will be gone for 2000 years".

01-28-2008, 08:13 AM	#874
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: If you decided that you wanted to protect John Smith from being attacked by his enemies because John Smith was your friend, would you injure or kill him? Of course you wouldn't, which invites the question "If God wanted to protect Jews from their enemies, why did he sometimes injure or kill them with storms and harmful microorganisms? With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history, and he has done so indiscriminately without any regard for a person's worldview. It is utter nonsense for anyone to assume that God would protect Jews from being injured or killed by humans, but not from being injured or killed by anything else.

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