Anat

Lee, was gigantism a common or rare trait among the Canaanites? I suspect that if any evidence, in the form of 9' skeletons, or tools, houses or furniture designed for 9' individuals were ever found, it would have been big news.

Therese

Lee, I really love your arguments for child slaughter.

This is awesomely amusing, given that babies cannot choose for themselves. I thought that christian beliefs are based around the idea that all are given an opportunity to follow god/christ? These little sprogs haven't been given that opportunity. what do you expect them to do? Crawl away from their parents and gurgle something meaning 'I accept the lord as my saviour?' should the unborn ones scratch through their mothers bodies to separate themselves as innocent, and die flailing?

Haplo

actually, many Christians refuse to answer these questions outright because they are actually hold two kinds of moral system, which result in differing conclusion when people ask them anything relating to "good"

their religion defines "good" and morals as coming from their God, so whatever their God does is for a good cause and is good in nature.
OTOH, they have a separate set of moral system which is derived from the same source as atheists ie. from interaction with society.

normally, these two set of moral system don't clash until it comes to the various biblical atrocities depicted in the bible. suddenly, the definition of "good" in both system clashes. why is it that lee think that the above two questions are attempts at misrepresenting his position? if he holds true to his religious morals, then the questions are easy to answer:

"yes, i honestly believe that God sends hailstones down to hurt people"
"yes, i agree that the genocide of the people by Joshua at God's orders, men, women, and children is good"

in both answers, the religious stance that God is always good and acting for a good cause would have meant implicitly that "sending hailstones down to hurt people" and "genocide" is done for a good cause, God-ordained. but of course, when answering that question, lee is actually using his secular moral definition for "good" (for he believes that the act of killing babies is evil).

of course, there is another simpler reason, that answering those questions outright would make them sound like fundamentalists.

another thing i find funny is lee wants to ask for proof if a supernatural entity that appears before him is God. that sounds like an atheist/agnostic move to me. Why? whenever i ask Christians why they believe so strongly in God, it was always along the line of "feeling His Presence". that is called faith...they claim that God's presence is unique so they couldn't mistake it for other supernatural entities. Hence, if "God" appears before lee and commands him to perform an act that conflicts with his secular morals, he don't believe that it is God unless He explained/showed lee that it is for a secularly good cause?

John A. Broussard

Being an all-powerful god, I'm sure he/it/she would be able to convince anyone that anything god commands is for a good cause. That would include genocide, killing the innocent, even killing one's own child. Certainly, Moses was convinced, as Abraham had been earlier.

badger3k

It's that kind of thinking that leads to this: http://www.utterwonder.com/archives/...on_highs_a.php



Christian Love, eh?

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Maybe it makes it more convincing to consider that they made this point without (apparently) knowing what it implied? And they offered just such evidence as you mention here:

Deuteronomy 3:11 Only Og king of Bashan was left of the remnant of the Rephaites. His bed was made of iron and was more than thirteen feet long and six feet wide. It is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites.

Now a wide bed might be a shared one, but such a long bed, on exhibit, indicates he really was extraordinarily tall.

I don't know what sorts of skeletons they may have found there these days, though, or whether they have identified any Canaanite (as opposed to Israelite) ones...

No, that is not what I believe, I believe that salvation is all by God's decision, this is part of what is called Reformed theology:

"All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by His word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation..." (Westminster Confession)

That is not my view, though, I believe God's actions should correspond with what we expect to be really good, what we expect from people, in seeking other's ultimate good.

Well no, there is an implicit endorsement of the skeptic's view here, in these "yes or no" questions. I may ask "Is this exercise of God's prerogative to determine the time and manner of every person's death intended to be mysterious to us?" I can put as much of my view in here as I wish, "Is this appropriate exercise...", and a "yes or no" answer will implicitly endorse what I put in here, from my view.

So these questions are a way of stating conclusions, and do not actually help us advance the discussion.

But I find this being done in Scripture!

Judges 6:17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me.

Thus it doesn't matter so much whether people proceed thinking that God spoke to them, just because they felt a presence they thought was unmistakably God's presence. I even had an experience like this, when I and someone else felt a presence that seemed like God's, and the other person made a comment to that effect, and I started playing a worship song, which plainly jarred against that other spirit, and showed that feelings are not dependable in these decisions.

Scripture even gives a plain method to discern spirits, do they acknowledge that Jesus Christ came in the flesh? I have applied this, over and over, and I have not relied on "I heard a voice," or "I had a feeling," which is virtually certain to be misleading, at some time.

And we have an account of this:

Exodus 4:1-3 Moses answered, "What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The Lord did not appear to you'?" Then the Lord said to him, "What is that in your hand?" "A staff," he replied. The Lord said, "Throw it on the ground." Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it.

I think that was for confirmation for Moses, in addition to being confirmation for the Israelite people, and again, not just a voice, or a feeling.

That was Moses, carrying this sign? We need not apply everything any church member ever did in the name of religion, to anything anyone else ever did, acting from possibly hearing from God.

Regards,
Lee

Therese

Quote:
Therese: I thought that christian beliefs are based around the idea that all are given an opportunity to follow god/christ?

What then, in your humble oppinion, is the fucking point? If what is stated above is true, then it doesn't matter what we do or what we believe in, as we are all marked out before conception for eternal life or death.

badger3k

Lee, I'm not sure if you just didn't understand, or are trying to use it for your own purpose for some reason, but I'll explain what I meant:

The sign was an example of the psychology you espouse, where anything that God says is good IS good. So if God says that homosexuals are evil and deserve to die, just like the babies, children, women and men that Joshua killed, then it is Right to kill them. You do understand psychology, don't you? Nothing to do with Moses, or even hearing from God - it's called reading the Scriptures and Interpreting them - something you do. They think they are correct in the same way you do, and I'd love to see the two of you try to convince the other that they are right.

John A. Broussard

Now, now! Calm down. As lee has pointed out, Jesus (or one of the three) is a god of love. He/she/it is going to clutch us to its bosom at death and grant us eternal bliss where we'll be singing psalms for all of eternity.

No one's going to burn in flames for ever and ever and ever. No loving god would ever do that.

So, relax. Have lee quote you a few more passages from the bible, or the westminster confession or qu'ran or whatever.

Anat

Lee, I know the story about Og's bed. Anybody can write anything in a book. Show me the bed and evidence for its age and I'll consider it.