Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 03-19-2013, 09:40 PM

Μαρίων = 'of Mary' "απόγονοι Μαρίων" = descendants of Mary (modern Greek)

aa5874 · 03-19-2013, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Dear aa5874,
Congratulations! Based on P46, you have dated the Pauline epistles to have existed within the careers of Irenaeus and Tertullian!
So the Frenchman was right after all!
Are you wanting to be an honorary Frenchman?

You seem intoxicated with your own mindless propaganda.

All of a sudden you seem NO longer able to do the Math.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The Pauline letters were composed AFTER c 180 CE and BEFORE c 350 CE.

DO THE MATH!!

Irenaeus and Tertullian may have been DEAD before the Pauline writings were composed if the Pauline letters were composed at or after c 225 CE.

Quote:

Papyrus 46 (in the Gregory-Aland numbering), designated by siglum 46, is one of the oldest extant New Testament manuscripts in Greek, written on papyrus, with its 'most probable date' between 175-225

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_46

stephan huller · 03-19-2013, 10:42 PM

Choices about Marcion 1: is Μαρκίων a man who cut off his own balls or a collection of writings who self-mutilated him/themselves?

Quote:

More ill-conducted also is Marcion than the wild beasts of that barbarous land: for is any beaver more self-castrating than this man who has abolished marriage? What Pontic mouse is more corrosive than the man who has gnawed away the Gospels? [Tertullian Against Marcion 1.1]

stephan huller · 03-19-2013, 10:54 PM

Choices about Marcion 2: is Μαρκίων a man who appeared under Antoninus or a gospel/collection of writings that came to light under Antoninus

Quote:

But of this I am sure, that he is an Antoninian heretic, impious under Pius. Now from Tiberius to Antoninus there are a matter of a hundred and fifteen and a half years and half a month. This length of time do they posit between Christ and Marcion. Since therefore it was under Antoninus that, as I have proved, Marcion first brought this god on the scene, at once, if you are in your senses, the fact is clear. The dates themselves put it beyond argument that that which first came to light under Antoninus did not come to light under Tiberius: that is, that the god of Antoninus' reign was not the God of the reign of Tiberius, and therefore he who it is admitted was first reported to exist by Marcion, had not been revealed by Christ. [ibid 1.19]

Quote:

As corrector apparently of a gospel which from the times of Tiberius to those of Antoninus had suffered subversion, Marcion comes to light, first and alone, after Christ had waited for him all that time, repenting of having been in a hurry to send forth apostles without Marcion to protect them. [ibid 4.4]

stephan huller · 03-19-2013, 11:11 PM

Choices About Marcion 3: were the 'antitheses' a document written by a man named Marcion in addition to the gospel or were the antitheses found with in the New Testament writings of the community (i.e. the Sermon on the Mount etc)?

Quote:

To prove next that this is a fact, I shall take up the rest <of my argument> from my opponents themselves. The separation of Law and Gospel is the primary and principal exploit of Marcion. His disciples cannot deny this, which stands at the head of their document, that document by which they are inducted, into and confirmed in this heresy. For such are Marcion's Anti-theses, or Contrary Oppositions, which are designed to show the conflict and disagreement of the Gospel and the Law, so that from the diversity of principles between those two documents they may argue further for a diversity of gods. Therefore, as it is precisely this separation of Law and Gospel which has suggested a god of the Gospel, other than and in opposition to the God of the Law, it is evident that before that separation was made,<that> god was still unknown who has just come into notice in consequence of the argument for separation: and so he was not revealed by Christ, who came before the separation, but was invented by Marcion, who set up the separation in opposition to that peace between Gospel and Law which previously, from the appearance of Christ until the impudence of Marcion, had been kept unimpaired and unshaken by virtue of that <sound> reasoning which refused to contemplate any other god of the Law and the Gospel than that Creator against whom after so long a time, by a man of Pontus, separation has been let loose. [ibid]

stephan huller · 03-19-2013, 11:16 PM

Choices About Marcion 4: when we read that 'Marcion retains' or 'Marcion erases' this or that passage is he talking about a collection of writings named Marcion or a person so named?

Quote:

And since even Marcion retains that a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, and yet has used the word 'wickedness'—which one supremely
good is incapable of—surely there remains the possibility of some interpretation by which to understand the kind of wickednesses which can have come to exist in one supremely good. [Tertullian 2.24]

Quote:

Yet the facts show him sending rain upon good and evil, and making his sun to rise upon just and unjust:a of which that other god makes no sort of provision. For although Marcion attempted to erase from the gospel this testimony of Christ to the Creator (Marcion de evangelio eradere ausus est), yet the whole world is inscribed with it, and every man's conscience reads it there. [ibid 2.17]

aa5874 · 03-19-2013, 11:26 PM

I want to make absolutely clear that the Pauline letters were most likely products of Fraud, forgeries or Fiction once they were composed AFTER c 180 CE.

Whoever composed the Pauline letters or manipulated them Must have known that the Pauline character did NOT have any Revlations from a Resurrected character but merely used existing writings about the stories of Jesus and INVENTED his supposed Revealed Teachings.

Without Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters there would be NO history of the supposed Jesus cult and that is PRECISELY why they were FABRICATED.

Without Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline and Non-Pauline letters the History of the Jesus cult most likely would have probably resembled the writings of Justin Martyr.

The early Jesus cult fundamentally had stories of Jesus that were compatible with the Synoptics and the Apocalypse of John based on Justin and DEVELOPED their TEACHINGS from Hebrew Scripture or a similar source, the Septuagint.

In the copies of copies of copies of.........copies of First Apology Justin Martyr claimed that it was the Memoirs of the Apostles and the writings of the Prophets that were Read on Sundays in the Church.

This is EXTREMELY important. The copies of copies....of copies......probably passed through the Hands of the Church.

1. In copies of copies of First Apology that passed through the hands of the Church---Up to the mid 2nd century the CHURCH did NOT need the Pauline Epistles.

2.In copies of copies of First Apology that passed through the hands of the Church ---Up to the mid 2nd century the Church DEVELOPED WITHOUT the Pauline letters.

3. In copies of copies of First Apology that passed through the hands of the Church--- Up to the mid-2nd century Marcion Preached Another God and Another Son.

4. In copies of copies of Against Celsus that passed through the hands of the Church--- UP TO c 160 CE, Celsus wrote NOTHING about Paul.

5. In copies of copies of "Writings of Irenaeus" that passed through the hands of the Church--Irenaeus claimed Jesus was CRUCIFIED in the reign of Claudius at about 50 years of age which REDUCES Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters to Historical Garbage of a Monstrous proportion.

6. In copies of copies of "Against Marcion" that passed through the hands of the Church--Tertullian claimed Marcion Mutilated ALL the Pauline letters EXCEPT Philemon which REDUCES Tertullian to a LIAR or a Fiction writer. Even Scholars ADMIT or DEDUCE that Paul did NOT write the Pastorals and some of the Letters to Churches.

Effectively, in copies of copies of copies...........of copies that passed through the Church Marcion was DEAD before the Pauline writings were composed.

Writings WITH Multiple Unknown Authors under a name of Paul were PLANTED in the hands of a DEAD Marcion.

Irenaeus and Tertullian did NOT even know what their OWN Paul wrote, when he wrote them and when he Lived.

Forged Letters were PLANTED on the Dead Marcion under a name of Paul sometime AFTER c 180 CE.

stephan huller · 03-19-2013, 11:52 PM

Choices About Marcion 5: was 'Marcion' a gospel or a man:

Quote:

If that gospel which among us is ascribed to Luke—we shall see whether it is Marcion (viderimus an et penes Marcionem) —if that is the same that Marcion by his antitheses (ipsum est quod Marcion per Antitheses)accuses of having been falsified by the upholders of Judaism with a view to its being so combined in one body with the law and the prophets that they might also pretend that Christ had that origin, evidently he could only have brought accusation against something he had found there already. [ibid 4.4]

stephan huller · 03-20-2013, 12:04 AM

Choices about Marcion 6: why doesn't Tertullian know who/what Marcion was/is? Could it be that he knew that Marcion wasn't a person?

Quote:

And yet heresy, which is always in this manner correcting the gospels, and so corrupting them, is the effect of human temerity, not of divine authority: for even if Marcion were a disciple, he is not above his master: and if Marcion were an apostle, Whether it were I, says Paul, or they, so we preach: and if Marcion were a prophet, even the spirits of the prophets have to be subject to the prophets,b for they are not <prophets> of subversion but of peace: even if Marcion were an angel, he is more likely to be called anathema than evangelist (evangelizator), seeing he has preached a different gospel. And so, by making these corrections, he assures us of two things—that ours came first, for he is correcting what he has found there already, and that that other came later which he has put together out of his corrections of ours, and so made into a new thing of his own. [ibid 4.4]

stephan huller · 03-20-2013, 12:10 AM

Choices About Marcion 7: did the man Marcion have a copy of John's Apocalypse in his stomach or was he/it a collection of writings?

Quote:

We have also churches which are nurselings of John's: for although Marcion spits out (respuit) his Apocalypse, yet the succession of their bishops, when traced back to its origin, will be found to rest in John as originator.[ibid 4.5]

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03-19-2013, 09:40 PM	#581
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Μαρίων = 'of Mary' "απόγονοι Μαρίων" = descendants of Mary (modern Greek)

03-19-2013, 11:26 PM	#587
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	I want to make absolutely clear that the Pauline letters were most likely products of Fraud, forgeries or Fiction once they were composed AFTER c 180 CE. Whoever composed the Pauline letters or manipulated them Must have known that the Pauline character did NOT have any Revlations from a Resurrected character but merely used existing writings about the stories of Jesus and INVENTED his supposed Revealed Teachings. Without Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters there would be NO history of the supposed Jesus cult and that is PRECISELY why they were FABRICATED. Without Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline and Non-Pauline letters the History of the Jesus cult most likely would have probably resembled the writings of Justin Martyr. The early Jesus cult fundamentally had stories of Jesus that were compatible with the Synoptics and the Apocalypse of John based on Justin and DEVELOPED their TEACHINGS from Hebrew Scripture or a similar source, the Septuagint. In the copies of copies of copies of.........copies of First Apology Justin Martyr claimed that it was the Memoirs of the Apostles and the writings of the Prophets that were Read on Sundays in the Church. This is EXTREMELY important. The copies of copies....of copies......probably passed through the Hands of the Church. 1. In copies of copies of First Apology that passed through the hands of the Church---Up to the mid 2nd century the CHURCH did NOT need the Pauline Epistles. 2.In copies of copies of First Apology that passed through the hands of the Church ---Up to the mid 2nd century the Church DEVELOPED WITHOUT the Pauline letters. 3. In copies of copies of First Apology that passed through the hands of the Church--- Up to the mid-2nd century Marcion Preached Another God and Another Son. 4. In copies of copies of Against Celsus that passed through the hands of the Church--- UP TO c 160 CE, Celsus wrote NOTHING about Paul. 5. In copies of copies of "Writings of Irenaeus" that passed through the hands of the Church--Irenaeus claimed Jesus was CRUCIFIED in the reign of Claudius at about 50 years of age which REDUCES Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters to Historical Garbage of a Monstrous proportion. 6. In copies of copies of "Against Marcion" that passed through the hands of the Church--Tertullian claimed Marcion Mutilated ALL the Pauline letters EXCEPT Philemon which REDUCES Tertullian to a LIAR or a Fiction writer. Even Scholars ADMIT or DEDUCE that Paul did NOT write the Pastorals and some of the Letters to Churches. Effectively, in copies of copies of copies...........of copies that passed through the Church Marcion was DEAD before the Pauline writings were composed. Writings WITH Multiple Unknown Authors under a name of Paul were PLANTED in the hands of a DEAD Marcion. Irenaeus and Tertullian did NOT even know what their OWN Paul wrote, when he wrote them and when he Lived. Forged Letters were PLANTED on the Dead Marcion under a name of Paul sometime AFTER c 180 CE.

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