tanya

Hi Pete,
I am sorry to dispute this observation, but, in my opinion, your assessment is incorrect.

Aristotle and Plato, it is true, both thought along the lines of your attractive illustration, with the earth at the center of the universe, i.e. solar system, what we call, geocentrism.

However, the brilliant Greek scientist, who served as head of the Library at Alexandria, in 3rd century BCE, Aristarchus of Samos not only identified the sun as the center of the universe, i.e. solar system, as we call heliocentrism, he actually computed the distance between the earth and the sun.

No, I don't share your opinion, that astrology and astronomy were a single discipline in 3rd century BCE.

I hope that one day we can learn how the silk route/route to India, enabled the spread of astrology/lunar calendar throughout the world, 3000 years ago....We always act as though the silk route evolved about the time of the Roman Empire, but I think (without a shred of evidence) it began, a millenium earlier than that. Those guys may well have treated astronomy and astrology as a single discipline, but that would have been many hundred years before Aristarchus.

Wish we had a catalog of the scrolls kept in Alexandria's library. Wouldn't it be marvelous to learn of some sort of correspondence between the librarian at Alexandria, and the head of the library at Herculaneum. Can't wait for the newest infrared, three dimensional imaging technology to "unroll" those scrolls buried by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 CE.

aa5874

What?? Have you read any well researched articles that show the Jesus story and cult did NOT originate in the 4th century??

You have ZERO evidence that the Paul/Seneca letters were forged in the 4th century just like you don't know what Eusebius wrote and when he wrote.

Once you admit that there were massive forgeries carried out by the Church then you must admit that writings which are claimed to have been composed in the 4th century may have been composed at some other time.

It is most mind-boggling that you now believe the very manipulated writings of the Church are historically accurate.

Eusebius, the Bishop of Caesarea wrote the History of the Church?? What did the Bishop of Rome write??

You don't seem to understand that what we have before us is the probably the BIGGEST CASE of FRAUD and FORGERIES in the ENTIRE HISTORY of mankind.

mountainman

His ideas were exceptional. The mob followed geocentrism.

WIKI goes on to say

IOW although we now know he was right, the people of his time and the people who came later did not subscribe to his ideas. The people who put together the new testament lived at that time in which cosmology was plainly geocentric, despite exceptions like Aristarchus (and perhaps even Pythagoras).


Let's just stay with astronomy. But what I meant is that they were mixed because of the requirement of both disciplines to track the movement of the sun moon and planets.

The planets defined the seven heavens above the moon.



I tend to think you may be right in that the Indus-Sarasvati civilisation may have cradled much knowledge.



My bet is that they were burnt by the christians because not one scroll mentioned Jesus, the Twelve Boneheads, Dear Paul buddy of Seneca, the new and strange testament or the christian church.



That will be very interesting I agree.

mountainman

The evidence is as follows ....


http://wesley.nnu.edu/index.php?id=2220


The Correspondence of Paul and Seneca


On the basis of at least 3 evidence references above, Dear Paul wrote to Dear Seneca in the 4th century.

It reminds me of the Eusebian letter exchange between King Agbarus and Jesus H Christ himself.

The 4th century was an age of great forgeries.

Paul and Seneca stinks of Eusebius (and/or his continuators).

Dear Paul needed a quick scribal boost of credibility (in the 4th century when things got going).

Enter stage right his good buddy Seneca.

My dear buddy Paul !! How the fuck are ya mate?

Kapyong

Gday Pete,

Thanks for that.
I left out the planets to try and keep things simple.

Philo says this, (slightly different to your list and diagram) :

Who is the Heir of Divine Things :
(224) ... And these persons appear to me to form the best conjectures on such subjects, who, having assigned the central position to the sun, say that there is an equal number of planets, namely, those above him and below him. Those above him being Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars; then comes the Sun himself, and next to him Mercury, Venus, and the Moon, which last is close to the air.

The Cherubim
VII. (21) ... For the spheres in heaven received a motion in opposite directions to one another, the
one sphere receiving a fixed motion towards the right hand, but the sphere of the other side receiving a wandering motion towards the left. (22) But that outermost circle of what are called the fixed stars is one sphere, which also proceeds in a fixed periodical revolution from east to west.

Making Philo's layout somewhat like this :

Heaven
<--Stars
Saturn-->
<--Jupiter
Mars-->
<--Sun
Mercury-->
<--Venus
Moon-->
Air
Earth

It is not certain how the various heavens fitted into the planetary spheres. Perhaps the seven heavens correspond to the planetary spheres - some authors say so.

There are usually 7 heavens, but some authors have eight, with the eighth being the circle of the firmament of the fixed stars, some groups have ten heavens. Gnostics groups have many more heavens - 365 being popular.

Hippolytus :
(There are, they say,) seven orbicular bodies, which they likewise call heavens. There is next a circle containing these within its compass, and this also they name an eighth heaven: and in addition to these, they affirm the existence of both a sun and moon. And these being ten in number, they say, are images of the invisible decade that (emanated) from Logos and Zoe.

2 Enoch :
2 Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, and showed me the Lord from afar, sitting on His very high throne. For what is there on the tenth heaven, since the Lord dwells there?

Panarion (Part 37 - Ophites)
4:3 And then, they say, the man stood on his feet, rose in mind above the eight heavens, and recognized and praised the Father on high who is above Ialdabaoth


Kapyong

aa5874

What??? Suddenly, you BELIEVE the Church?? Jerome, Augustine and FAKE Linus are evidence that the Paul/Seneca letters were composed in the 4th century by Eusebius??

Eusebius was supposedly ALREADY dead in the time of Jerome and Augustine and in addition the earliest manuscripts are from the 9th century.

You have NO dated manuscripts of Augustine, Jerome and Fake Linus from the 4th or 5th century.
You provided ZERO evidence that the Paul/Seneca letters were composed in the 4th century by Eusebius.

Now, if you accept the claims of Jerome and Augustine who wrote in the time of Massive forgeries why can't you accept that Justin wrote about Jesus story and the Jesus cult in the 2nd century???

Look at the evidence that the Jesus story and cult did NOT originate in the 4th century.

http://wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays...of-the-church/

mountainman

aa5874 please desist from introducing the word BELIEVE.
We are dealing with historical possibilities.
What is possible and what is not possible.


To an investigator there exists evidence by which it may be reasonably inferred that the forged letter exchange between P and S was in circulation at the end of the 4th century.

It is certainly within the realms of historical possibility that the forged letter exchange was generated at the time the rest of the "Early Christian literature" was assembled. It is just another fraud. The earliest Christians worked on the ground floor of a 4th century forgery mill.

mountainman

YW.