Vorkosigan

Based on suggestions in Meier (p228, vol2) and Gundry (Mark Commentary, p313), I've mapped out the main parallels to the book of Esther in Mark's account of the death of John in Mark 6:17-29. In Esther, she replaces the Queen Vashti after Vashti refuses the King's order to display herself before his courtiers at a drunken banquet. In the talmudic tales about this, Vashti was supposed to appear wearing only her crown, and her head was served to the King on platter. Later Esther makes a banquet for the king, earns his favor, and has her rival hung. Other elements of the tale appear in John.

From the table we can know see why Mark got his history of Herodias "wrong." He wanted to force the parallel between Herodias, who was Herod's granddaughter, and Vashti, who was Nebuchadnezzar's granddaughter. Once again, my man Mark is vindicated. Homer may nod, but Mark never sleeps. Whenever he makes a mistake, the reason lies in his creative use of sources.

Here they are:



Some of them are a bit out of order, but in the main I think they are OK. Mark used sources, but he didn't simply file the serial numbers off and throw them in his gospel. I think there is a neat inverted parallel as well I thought I would toss in here:

• Vashti makes the King lose face in front of his court by refusing his command to appear before his courtiers, naked.

• Herod is forced to keep his promise to the daughter to prevent a loss of face.

Just to see what you guys think. Have at 'em

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan

I should add that in v22: Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, and Bezae all agree that Herodias' daughter is also named Herodias, although your Bible doesn't say that. A double of her mother, a typical Markan move.

Rick Sumner

Are you suggesting that there was no real execution of John the Baptist? If not, how do you propose to tell the real details from the redaction? For example, I'd suggest it's prima facie likely that John was beheaded. Yet that appears in your proposed earlier source as well. How, using your method, do you propose to tell the difference between what is real and what isn't except arbitrarily?

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Vorkosigan

I don't! As you say, every detail is in the source. To avoid the problem you have named, I am only worrying about eliminating support for historicity, not buttressing it. Remember? I don't have any positive criteria -- I am just knocking out what can be shown to be fiction. Clearly this is. By showing that Mark derived this story from currently circulating riffs on Esther, I have removed its ability to support historical fact. If you want to claim that John was beheaded, or beheaded by Herod, or beheaded by Herod at some specific time, it would be difficult to use Mark to support it. Impossible, as I see it.

Vorkosigan

Rick Sumner

This presumes that everything Mark wrote that was inspired by or had a scriptural precedent didn't happen, however. We can't safely assume that, because we know that writers did write about real events in a manner influenced by scripture.

Thus, for example, using your present example (and adding to it that we know that John was executed through Josephus), it seems most reasonable to presume that the reason Mark chose the Esther narrative to shape his account of John the Baptist is that John really was beheaded--that Mark read scripture in the light of recent events.

Applying your own suppositions (which I feel is entirely justified)--that Mark was neither stupid nor arbitrary--there doesn't seem to be any alternative. Unless, of course, you'd care to suggest another reason for Mark to have selected this particular passage.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Vorkosigan

Sure, I agree. I can name several cases of it. But that is beside the point.

Again you have misunderstood my point. I am not "presuming that it didn't happen" -- in fact, I have not rendered any judgment on historicity at all!!!! All I am doing is exposing this story as a fiction and that as it stands it cannot support an argument for historicity. It is now up to those who want to insist there is history to supply the necessary outside vector to show it really happened. Fortunately for them, they have Josephus to assure them that John was executed by Herod.

Sure. But if we didn't have Josephus, how would we know? We wouldn't. We'd be stuck looking at a fiction. We have the same problem with everything for which there is no outside vector (Temple Ruckus, Arrest, Trials, Crucifixion, etc). The difference is that here we have an outside source for Mark's fiction, Josephus. Mark actually preserves only one fact, John's beheading at the hands of Herod. All the other details are wrong. Mark is not "rewriting" history but creating it, everything here being invention.

Mark's not that pious or stupid. In my view he is writing parody, and saw a delicious opportunity to set up some neat irony involving our prissy clean Esther and that shameless Herodian hussy, Herodias.

Vorkosigan

Rick Sumner

But therein lay the problem. Without Josephus, we might look at the narrative and presume it was outright fiction. . .except we'd be wrong. Without the "outside vector," we are left no means to confirm, that doesn't mean that that which isn't confirmed didn't happen.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Vorkosigan

I agree totally. But without that outside vector, all we can do is say "yup, maybe there is history down there, and maybe there isn't." In some cases that vector in principle cannot be had, because the story violates natural law, or known historical practice (such as the Sanhedrin trial), or known historical plausibility (the Temple Ruckus). Where are our sources are silent, and historical plausibility is low, it's a good bet we're looking at fiction. But then, you can't really know, can you?

Vorkosigan

Intelligitimate

Great work, Vork! Keep it up.

Amaleq13

Speaking of outside vectors, what is known about the use of beheadings as a form of punishment? We know, for example, what sorts of crimes/criminals were typically crucified but can we say the same for a beheading by Herod?

If we didn't have the Gospel stories, would we be able to assume/guess the means of execution from Josephus?