Originally Posted by Self-Mutation

Logic and common sense. God's Word is far too powerful to be bound by some silly book. I can't believe you are still falling for what other men tell you.

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Logic and common sense? in other words from your self. It is your veiw against the prophets of the bible....im going with the latter...who have more proof than your logic and common sense.

God's Word is too powerful to be bound by a silly book? So show us what is God's word...and where else have you heard it...if not in the bible? Silly guy.

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

riiigggght and your the benchmark for logic. at least SM has a personal one on one relationship with your god you just recite other peoples thoughts and opinions. Wow who would think that you would discount another Christians interpretation? why would a powerful god allow to people who believe in him disagree onthe basics of how he talks to them?

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

"If you continue in My Word then are you my disciples indeed."---Jesus


A christian is not a christian if he or she does not believe the Word...which IS Jesus. :wave:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

"If you continue in My Word then are you my disciples indeed."---Jesus

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Critics have gone from saying that biblical prophecy are written afterwards, failures, to even being vague. But are prophecies vague?....certainly not.


Daniel ch 2 Nebby's dream of the statue is not vague and not any kingdom can fit this prophecy....it is very very clear as well as specific.


The statue is made of four different metals representing four kingdoms to arise one after the other.

1. Head of Gold
2. Chest and arms of silver
3. Stomach and thighs of brass
4. Legs of Iron
5. Ten toes mixed with Iron and Clay

Daniel gives the meaning which is very clear:

After describing the statue to Nebby Daniel reveals who the head of gold was: "You are this head of gold." and then he goes on to say "and after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you (silver is inferior to gold), and another THIRD kingdom of brass which shall bear rule over all the earth. And the FOURTH kingdom shall be strong as iron....and where you saw the feet and toes, part of potter's clay and part of iron THE KINGDOM SHALL BE DIVIDED.....they sahll mingle themselves with the seed of men, but they shall not cleave one to another (this is exactly what has happen to Europe since the fall of Rome. Attempts for unification have been made but were usually weak or unsuccessful).

Now we know who the head of gold is but what about the rest? In chapter 5 we are given the second kingdom of silver. "Your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians" Daniel told the last king of Babylon. "And Darius the Median took the kingdom...."

1. Gold (Babylon)
2. Silver (Medo-Persia)

Who is the third? In ch 8 we are given the third. This chapter involves a war between a goat and a ram that Gabriel says "The ram which you saw having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of GRECIA and the GREAT HORN that is between his eyes is the FIRST KING." The goat defeats the ram...in other words Greece is here shown to defeat Medo-Persia.

1. Gold (Babylon)
2. Silver (Medo-Persia)
3. Brass (Greece)

Who is the Fourth kingdom? Gabriel gives us a clue in ch. 9 "After 62 weeks shall Messiah (Jesus) be CUT OFF (killed) BUT NOT FOR HIMSELF (hmmmm) and THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE TEMPLE."

The destruction of the Restored nation of Israel comes after the death of the Messiah...the Romans are the only people to have destroyed Israel after its rebirth and after the death of the Messiah.

"And it came to pass in those days that there went out a decree from Caeser Agustus, THAT ALL THE WORLD SHOULD BE TAXED." Matthew 2 Clearly by this authority Rome is the Supreme power.


Decriptions of the 4th kingdom:

1. strong as Iron that would "break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms" (that is iron is the most durable and strongest of all metals like gold silver and brass. No other human nation will be strong enough to overcome it. And to this day the inheritors of the Roman empire the Europeans have not been conquered by another people...the Persians the Mongols, Arabs and others have failed)

2. It would be divided. Rome divided into east and west Rome then into the separate powers of Europe (America too is a European power, currently the strongest nation on earth. The world wars today have been between these separate competeing European powers. Daniel foretold that the unity between them would be brittle)
3. Would endure until the coming of the Messiah...or rather His return. (see Daniel 2 44-45)


The Roman-European powers are the 4th kingdom.


Vague? Yeah, only to a blind man. These prophecies in Daniel are very easy to figure out if you continue to read all the chapters.

Originally Posted by ChairmanMeow

The Skeptical Review, May 1993 edition, presents a strong counterargument:

In reality, history has left Christian fundamentalists with too many empires for Daniel's prophecy to fit the mold that they want to cast it in, so they have had to restructure empires to fit their need. The empires and kingdoms that existed between Nebuchadnezzar and the Roman Empire were so unstable and factional that it is difficult to determine when one ended and another began. The Median Empire overlapped the Neo-Babylonian Empire that Nebuchadnezzar II ruled, and they were both absorbed by the conquests of Cyrus the Great, which gave rise to the Achaemenid or Persian Empire. The conquests of Alexander the Great, however, absorbed the Achaemenid Empire and gave rise to a worldwide (in terms of the then known world) Hellenistic Empire. So if the Median and Achaemenid (Persian) Empires are considered separate entities, as actually they were and (as we will see) Daniel apparently considered them, then the Hellenistic Empire of Alexander the Great should have been the fourth or iron kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Fundamentalists can't have this, however, because it doesn't make Daniel's interpretation fit the mold they need, so they conveniently consolidate these two and call them the "Medo-Persian Empire." That way, the Hellenistic Empire becomes the brass kingdom so that the Roman Empire can be the iron kingdom. Then, presto, just like that, they have an amazing prophecy fulfillment in Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

This can be backed up by solid facts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes#Median_Empire
"In the second half of the 7th century BC, the Medes gained their independence and were united by a dynasty."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes#Median_Empire
"The Achaemenids were the first to create a centralized state in Persia, founded by Achaemenes (Haxamaniš), chieftain of the Persians around 700 BC."

From here:
It is clear that even the writer of Daniel himself thought that these two nations were different and seperate from each other.

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

This is weak and very untrue lets see what Daneil actually says about the Median and Persians:

Daniel told the last king of Babylon "Your kingdom is DIVIDED (a kingdom cannot be divided by a single kingdom) and given to the MEDES AND PERSIANS." The Medes AND Persians. The medes are one arm of the image the Persians the other arm.

Gabriel: " The ram which you saw having TWO HORNS are the kings of MEDIA AND PERSIA." Daniel ch.8 is about the Medes and Persians going to war aganst the Greeks.


Cyrus defeated his Grandfather the king of Media and unified the medes and persians....Medo-Persia. Daniel does not seperate the Medes from the Persians. In fact in the book of Daniel the kings of Medo-Persia were either Medes or Persians.


Critics try (unsucessfully) to seperate the Medes and Persians to place one of them as the third kingdom and Greece the Fourth. Because if Rome is the fourth (it clearly is) then the lies about Daniel becomes unraveled.....Rome rose to power after the supposed 2nd century writting and divided much later as well as destroyed Israel which Gabriel predicted they would. The accuracy of these predictions causes a BIGGG problem to them....because it would prove that God exist....and indeed they do.

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

What im saying is that the people who controled the Roman Empire ofcourse were Europeans (Romans, Greeks, Celtics, Germanic etc). The Germanic people are the major factors who transformed the Roman empire into modern Europe. This is why history has it that Rome fell from WITHIN and not from without. And what people has yet to conquer Europe? Noone....and noone will.

Originally Posted by funinspace

Your own arguments deconstruct your own theories about what are the 4 kingdoms. If the Roman empire is distinct from the Greek empire, then the same logic dictates that the Ottoman and Russian empires are distinct from the Roman one; which damages your previous attempts at shoe horning Biblical prophecy into human history. You are trying to have your cake and eat it as well…ergo, while interpreting the Biblical texts you cannot change methodologies mid-stream.

Secondly, you have not explained the failure of the Roman empire (fourth kingdom) to devour the whole earth, beat it down, and crush it. per Daniel 7:23. This is what your prophecy describes, and it has never happened in earth history.

Therefore you have failed to demonstrate accurate prophecy.