shalak

I am having discussions via email with someone about the idea of the Bible predicting the pope/catholic church. I strongly disagree for different reasons but after going back and reading some verses even more so now.

This individual is citing 1 Timothy and 2 Thessalonians as his proof text for the idea. He is stating that the similarities between these passages and the catholic church match very well and that he is not aware of any other matching group.

However as I read further into 2 Thess I saw one interesting problem with this idea. The son of perdition is something that is supposed to preclude the second coming. So if the pope/catholic church was that son of perdition would that text not destroy the very idea of Jesus return in the first place since we are still here?

In addition to that is there some other near event in history this may pertain to? Or was there something that caused Paul to talk about the idea of this antichrist if you will? I am not familiar with the history around Paul's time period except that at some point Nero squeezed in there.

I posted the verses in question below.

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NKJV

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

NKJV

2Th 2:1 ¶ Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 ¶ Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

Jedi Mind Trick

The 1st Tim passage, keeping in mind that Timothy is a doubtful book, was probably written by the proto orthodox church to counter some form of Gnosticism.

The Thessonian passage is probably also not really from the hand of Paul and was similarly directed at Gnostics or even the Cult of the Emporor, but this time drawing upon the imagery in the book of Daniel.

That's the way I look at them. They were just written to scare the faithful and keep them, well, faithful.

Toto

You realize that most people here don't believe in Biblical prophecy?

shalak

Oh I don't either, I am an atheist >.< I am having a discussion with someone and I am asking if my critique of what they said was good and if there was something perhaps that anyone could add.

I am a very recent atheist and I am having discussions with various people some of who are very close to me.

I am at a stage where I am going to be having these discussions probably with several people since I am a very recent atheist. I know I could just blow people off but at least for now I would like to be able to continue in intelligent discussions/critiques with them.

I was wondering if anyone can think of any other criticisms of this passage etc I am looking for different critiques/perspectives to also increase my knowledge.

One of the ways I learned to think better was by seeing people like yourselves apply critical reasoning and I am much better than I used to be about being able to critique issues such as this but I still am new to being critical of the Christian religion/the Bible. After all I only became an atheist about 3 months ago or so.

Toto

OK - keep in mind that Biblical scholars (other than evangelical extremists) believe that the Pastorals (the letters to Timothy and Titus) were clearly not written by the same person who wrote the other epistles, and were written much later, after the church was more established and hierarchical.

This passage appears to describe someone who relied on oracles or spirits (Apelles, a disciple of Marcion, fits), told people not to marry (as Marcion did), and wanted his followers to abstain from eating meat (Marcion again.)

This is clearly aimed at Marcion or possibly some of his followers. The author of Titus (probably the same proto-orthodox who did the final edits of Luke and Acts) is creating a prophecy from Paul that describes second century heretics to a T. That's how prophecy in the Bible usually works.

shalak

Ah thanks for mentioning the Marcion character I am now reading some things about him. Do you happen to know of a good book that discusses/critiques the biblical prophecies? Including things such as Daniel if possible.

Toto

Check the references in the stickied thread at the top of this forum: Please read...

There is a thread on Daniel.