connick

I haven't read every verse of the Bible but I think I understand the key aspects of the plot. A Christian theist gave me a list of Biblical prophecies as evidence of the Bible's verity. I plugged the verses into Biblegateway.com and analyzed them. To me it appears that at least a handful of these prophecies were "fulfilled" on purpose. The characters in the NT had foreknowledge of what was written in the OT, so they were aware of the prophecies.

Take these few for example:
In the OT it was said that the messiah would be struck and spat upon. So when Jesus claims to be the son of God they punch him and spit on him.

In the OT it was prophecized that this would be what they served the messiah to drink. Again, because Jesus claims to be the Chosen One, they give him what is foretold in the OT prophecy. I don't think they simply happened to give him wine and gall as a drink. It appears to me that they did it on purpose to mock Jesus and his claim.

As with the previous verse it seems apparent that the antagonists in Jesus' plight are familiar with the OT prophecies and are enacting them to add insult to Jesus' injuries.

I don't see how Christians can use these prophecies as evidence of the Bible's verity when it is clear, even within the story, that these acts were played out purposefully with the aim of mocking Jesus.

There was another verse in which the people striking Jesus say, out loud, something to the effect of, "and they struck him with their hands and feet." (If anyone knows what verse I'm talking about please let me know where I can find it.) It's as though they are saying, "You claim to be the messiah? Well, here's your gall and vinegar. Here's your perfunctory kick in the face. Sorry pal, but we have to smite and scorn you because you say you're the messiah!"

All of the prophecies look like nonsense to me, but the ones like these that are intentionally "fulfilled" by Jesus' antagonists are almost funny in a way.

WishboneDawn

You'll find a lot of us christians think prophecy talk is bunk. It's a wishful christian reading of an ancient Hebrew text.

Malachi151

connick: Ahh, very good young grasshopper.

Yes, you are definitely on the right track. In fact the whole "prophesy" bit is some of the leading evidence in the "Jesus was a Myth" claim. The fact is that the story of Jesus is construction from the Hebrew scriptures, thus all the things that "Jesus" does have corresponding statements in the "Old Testament".

John Kesler

Where are the passages which predict these things regarding "the messiah"?

connick

Like I said, I'm no Bible-fiend. The passages that are supposed to prophecy these events can be found in the book of Isaiah and the book of Psalms.

Malachi151

Actually, Psalm 22 is more heavily used by Mark (and Matthew). What is important here is that Mark was written first, from which all the others are based.

See:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/temp/matthew_15.htm

John Kesler

I am aware of the many alleged "messianic prophecies" in the OT, but I invite you to read such passages in context to see for yourself what they pertain to.

connick

I've been doing my best to read these passages in context. Reading Psalms 22 you can see right off the bat that the verses refer to the Israelites. That these verses are prophetic is not my personal claim, but rather that of the Christian theist who gave me the list. I'm not attacking this gentleman's interperetation of who "The Chosen" refers to. Rather I'm following his supposition that it refers to Christ in the NT and making the point that if the statements were, in fact, prophecy regarding Christ then it looks like their "fulfillment" was nothing more than mockery from his opponents. You are right though, even a cursory glance at the context leaves "prophecies" like these dead in the water. I'm just wondering how some Christians can call on these prophecies when (even if they are truly prophetic) they do little but make Christ look like a fool.

Malachi151

Well, its because its the only defense they have for the fact that virtually the entire story of Jesus is lifted from the "OT" texts.

You basically have two options:

1) Claim that this is prophesy fulfillment

2) Admit that the "story of Jesus" is fabricated from "OT" sources

wiccan windwalker

there is such a concept as "parallel prophecy".....ram in the thicket//blood of the lamb on the lentils of the doorposts//at passover//crucifixion of Jesus at passover//communion///communion of melchizidek///