Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lezardo · 11-18-2005, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob
Okay, you are better at history than me, but it surprises me that someone would worry more about others (dead ones at that) before considering his own status before God.

I'm sorry but I don't see how one cannot worry about the fate their fellow humans. I can't accept a belief system that sends essentially good people to hell for not believing that God walked the Earth 2000 years ago. I could not be happy in heaven knowing that so many others are suffering. This is the very reason I questioned my faith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Here we go:

Matt 3:12: Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

"Unquenchable fire." Poetic reference to annihilation in the flames of Gehenna.

Matt 5:29: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

"Hell" in the Greek, is Gehenna, which is a place of annihilation, not eternal torment (also, I think I should point out that Gehenna is not an otherwordly place or an afterlife location, it was a physical place on earth where it was believed that sinners would be killed).

Matt 7:13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

"The path to destruction," i.e death or annihilation. Nothing to do with an afterlife or eternal punishment.

Matt 8:12: But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

"Outer darkness" = death/annihilation.

Matt 10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

"Hell" in Greek is Gehenna. Note that this verse says the soul itself will be destroyed in Gehenna (actually it says psuche which is more akin to "mind" than "soul," but close enough).

Matt 13:30-50: Parable of the tares. Culminates in a "furnace" allegory as a reference to death/annihilation.

Matt 22:13: Another parable with a king tossing people into "ouer darkness." Another refence to death, and a parable anyway.

Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Gehenna again. It's the flames that are eternal, not the torment.

Luke 3:17: Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Unquenchable fire again. Death/annihilation, not "Hell."

Luke 16:23: Parable of Lazarus and the rich man. This one says "Hades" in Greek but that's really just a translation of the Hebrew Sheol. Refers to the "Bosom of Abraham," which was part of Sheol. Also refers to the rich man "burning in flames," but this is just a reflection of a later Jewish refinement of Sheol into a good part and a bad part. While there was eventually, som e idea of temporary ounishment in Sheol before the resurrection and judgement of the dead, this punishent was not eternal.

2 Thess 1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Destruction. Not torment.

2 Peter 2:4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment

The word translated as "hell" is Tartarus in Greek. That's part of Hades and in this verse it's only talking about angels anyway.

Jude 1:6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

More angels in chains. Just in "darkness" this time and only "until judgement."

Jude 1:23: And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Poetic allegory urging Christians to save others.

I'm too tired to go through all the Revelation verses but all those verses basically refer to a "lake of fire" where sinners (and death itself) will be annihilated.

After reading all the verses again, I believe you're absolutely right. It really doesn't mention eternal torment for humans. This is interesting.

What do you think of Matt 25:46?

Quote:

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Diogenes the Cynic · 11-18-2005, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lezardo

What do you think of Matt 25:46?

The words translated as "eternal punishment" are kolasin aionion in Greek. I already talked about aionios above. It doesn't mean eternal. Kolasin has a figurative meaning of "correction" or "penalty," but literally, it means to "cut-off" or "prune." So to be "pruned" or "cut off" is just another way to say destroyed or annihilated. Kolasin does not carry a connotation of active, ongoing punushment or torment.

Harumi · 11-18-2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The words translated as "eternal punishment" are kolasin aionion in Greek. I already talked about aionios above. It doesn't mean eternal. Kolasin has a figurative meaning of "correction" or "penalty," but literally, it means to "cut-off" or "prune." So to be "pruned" or "cut off" is just another way to say destroyed or annihilated. Kolasin does not carry a connotation of active, ongoing punushment or torment.

Is there a different word for eternal life then? I'm curious, because it would be interesting if life for believers isn't as eternal as they thought it would be.

Diogenes the Cynic · 11-18-2005, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harumi

Is there a different word for eternal life then? I'm curious, because it would be interesting if life for believers isn't as eternal as they thought it would be.

No, it's the same word. zoen aionion, "enduring life." Interesting point.

Joan of Bark · 11-18-2005, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Joan of Bark - I suggest that you have not (yet at least) personally known the blessing of the Holy Spirit. You are incapable of blaspheming against something you do not know. A man who knows the Holy Spirit will not speak against it – this may be Jesus’ point. God's love for us knows no bounds.

At the risk of flogging this dying horse to death, the dictionary defines blaspheme as "speaking irreverently about something sacred". There is no mention of whether one needs to "know" that "something" in order to blaspheme it. So again I say, I am already doomed to never being able to obtain forgiveness, so what is the point of asking?

Helpmabob · 11-19-2005, 02:58 AM

Hi Clarice and Diogenes –

Quote:

It is not a messianic prophecy.

Shall we agree to disagree on this for the time being? You pays your money… Jesus said - "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" [Matthew 16:15].

Hi John -

Quote:

Please explain why it is that they are convinced that they are right, but that you are also convinced that you are right.

I really cannot speak for or judge the position another man takes. I do know that the devil is a powerful and subtle deceiver: And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. [2 Corinthians 11:14]

Hi Joan of Bark -

Quote:

…so what is the point of asking?

Because God’s love knows no bounds.

John A. Broussard · 11-19-2005, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob

Hi John - I really cannot speak for or judge the position another man takes. I do know that the devil is a powerful and subtle deceiver: And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. [2 Corinthians 11:14]

Thank you.

I wondered if you would admit that it might be Satan deceiving you and that god is revealing the divine will to others.

Doesn't it bother you think that that powerful and subtle deceiver may be masquerading himself as an angel of light in your vision?

I look forward to your answer.

Harumi · 11-19-2005, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

No, it's the same word. zoen aionion, "enduring life." Interesting point.

I agree. It is an incredibly interesting point.

This makes me wonder if all the scriptures describing heaven uses similar words. I am no Bible scholar, and certainly no Greek expert. If possible, I believe this would be another interesting area of research. Certainly it would shock the Christians if their eternal heavenly afterlife wasn't so no more than hell.

Speaking of which, is that where Catholics get their idea of purgatory?

Helpmabob · 11-21-2005, 03:44 AM

Hi John -

Quote:

Doesn't it bother you think that that powerful and subtle deceiver may be masquerading himself as an angel of light in your vision?

I don't think there is any conundrum here. The verse I quote is a contextual warning from the same Bible where Jesus is proclaimed as Lord and Saviour. I once was lost, and now am found - the difference is clear. But you seem to be choosing to believe in nothing at all?

Clarice O'C · 11-21-2005, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The words translated as "eternal punishment" are kolasin aionion in Greek. I already talked about aionios above. It doesn't mean eternal. Kolasin has a figurative meaning of "correction" or "penalty," but literally, it means to "cut-off" or "prune." So to be "pruned" or "cut off" is just another way to say destroyed or annihilated. Kolasin does not carry a connotation of active, ongoing punushment or torment.

Matt. 25:46, And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Matt. 25:46 is a good example of what I was once taught by a religious studies professor about the mentions of 'hell' in the NT. Each appearance of 'hell' has to be studied as if it stands on its own, e.g., is it gehenna, sheol, etc.; is it 'eternal,' 'everlasting,' 'evermore,' etc.; is it in a teaching passage such as the parables meaning not a threat of some literal hell someday but a call to turn one's life around in the present (metanoia--change your mind, and therefore your behavior). Is it speaking of the quality of life presently. Matt. 25:46 is such a passage. 'Eternal punishment' meaning suffering brought on by one's self, 'living death,' which is a time of being 'cut-off, corrected by life, penalized, pruned,' as opposed to doing what's right and living life abundantly = 'eternal life.' The 'kingdom of God,' 'kingdom of heaven' earlier in Chapter 25 is eternal life (quality) presently, not 'hell' after physical death..

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.