Baidarka

Here's a link to some Native American thoughts about New Agers who dabble in their sacred beliefs. Try replacing the term "new agers" with Christians and the term 'Native Americans" with Jews and see if this doesn't work. http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/021.html

""NO! THE NEW AGERS DO NOT DO A GOOD JOB OF REPRESENTING THE BELIEFS OF MY PEOPLE. They steal the cerimonies and parts of the beliefs that they choose without permission, without knowledge. They bastardize them and re-package them for sell to the public either for money or credibility. And I am so very sick and tired of it. What the new agers do to our beliefs is another form of genocide that my people have had to endure." Nora Bunce, Eastern Cherokee

The Christian use (abuse) of Jewish martyrs. The Christian bastardization of Jewish beliefs. The Christian creation of mystical Jewish evil. The insane Christian invention of the Jewish murder of God. The Christian abuse of sacred Jewish texts.

Chili

I am not sure if 'them' Indians can still maintain the true spirit of their tradition because the influence of the white people has destroyed some of the basic conditions that are needed for it to prosper and flourish. Besides that, our civil laws may work against them.

But I wanted to agree with you that Christians bastardized Jewish beliefs and still do. Lucky for us Catholics who are not Christians that they can live side-by-side with Jews as their grafted branches.

Baidarka

As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger " What do you mean by "We" white man?"

Chili

Well I don't know the context of the question but I'll give you the right answer anyway. In relation to the Indians all foreigners (?) are white and in relation to the Jews only and all Christians are white -- regardless if they think that their relationship is parasitic or contributory. If outsiders as much as even recognize that Jews are Gods favorite people or, from the other side, look for a prophesy fulfilled they are already in contempt and will have fallen from Gods favor . . . wherefore I claim that Catholics are God's favorite people in the NT who do not have to look for prophesy fulfillment any longer.

Baidarka

"I am not sure if 'them' Indians can still maintain the true spirit of their tradition because the influence of the white people has destroyed some of the basic conditions that are needed for it to prosper and flourish. Besides that, our civil laws may work against them."

What does this mean? How is this relevant?
The destruction of the temple in 70 AD should have destroyed the raison d'etre for Judaism. Christianity posed as the New Israel. Just as some New Agers (who are the children of the people who tried to destroy the Native Americans) now want to be the New Indians (I am using the out dated term "Indian" in an ironic sense).
Christians (Catholics included if not especially) have no right to the books of my ancestors. They do not understand these books and they try to justify their ridiculous, perverse version of reality and history with these misunderstandings.
The Romans tried to steal the Jewish religion along with the Temple treasury. Christianity is founded on Jewish blood.

Baidarka

"Well I don't know the context of the question "

The Lone Ranger and Tonto are hiding behind some big rocks and arrows are whizzing over their heads.
The Lone Ranger says to Tonto- "Tonto we're surrounded by Indians"
Tonto replies- "What do you mean "We" White Man."

"Lucky for us Catholics who are not Christians that they can live side-by-side with Jews as their grafted branches." Whhhhhat?

Chili

It is relevant in that the Indians had a much less technically advanced civilization (which says something about their spiritual well being in that the complexity of the civilization is created out of the spiritual advances). Christianity is the New Israel but those who claim to be Christians are those who stormed the temple and destroyed the New Israel in their own community right along with it. That is why I claim that Catholics are not Christians but that Christian-ity is the fruition of Catholicism.

There is no irony but is all very true. Israel is a true spirit that also the Indians knew in their context and frame of reference. We call it the condition of being Christian, you call it Israel, and the Indians must have called it something that for was them to achieve. We don't want your books. Just your Genesis and your Laws out of which our savior is born and to which we become grounded with reality = full circle.

Just look and see how the Law was needed to convict Joseph and later cricify Jesus who had abandoned Judaism because he was grounded to the reality of Genesis in Luke's lineage.

We don't care about you history and started counting on day one in the year of our Lord.

We don't care about your treasures and have our own piled ski-high in Rome. To accumulate these all you need is a brush and some paint when God is on your side.

Chili

Don't blame me for that. It was the Jews who rejected Christ as their messiah even though he proved that he was the true son of God become God in the NT. Without this rejection the NT would have never been written.

Weltall

Ah... no. You see, Jesus as portrayed in the NT did not fit the mold the expected messiah was supposed to fit into. The authors of the Gospels tried mightily to make him fit, but it's an obviously forced fit. For example, you've gotta love those geneologies where they try to prove Jesus was descended from David...

Chili

Thanks Weltall and that is exactly my point. The recordedline of Joseph was from Jacob who was the father of Judah, and Joseph's son was the promised messiah and therefore traced his own lineage back to God . . . as he should or he would not be the son of God.

I think the real problem was unbelief, which, of course, is their choice because a second messiah is bound to come along sooner or later. Until then, we, in Catholicism, wait for ours and they wait for theirs. So there is no problem, really, is there?