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Toto · 02-15-2006, 06:24 PM

Yesterday was St. Valentine's Day, but it was also St. Trifon Zarezan day in Bulgaria (the modern country which includes much of the ancient territory of Thrace.) St. Trifon Zarezan is the patron saint of vine-growers and wine-makers. His holiday is celebrated by pruning the vines, a few fertility rituals to get the vines to grow, and consuming vast quantities of red wine.

My local Bulgarian wine dealer informs me that

Quote:

As for the etymology of the name Trifon Zarezan, there are many different folklore versions. One of the most popular stories is that Trifon, just like the villagers, once had a vineyard. One day, when he was pruning his vineyard, the Virgin Mary passed by. Trifon laughed at her that she did not know who the father of her child was, so she condemned him to cut his nose with his pruning shears. From then on, people called Trifon 'Zarezan' (the 'snub-nosed'). Even the icons depict St Trifon with pruning shears in hand, showing him to be honoured as a patron of vineyards - one of the main symbols of fertility in Bulgarian folklore culture.

However, ethnographers are unanimous that St Trifon's celebrations are a remote reverberation of the ancient Dionysus festivities, and more precisely of the myth of King Lycurgus of Epirus who did not honour the god of wine and was punished by Dionysus, who inflicted him with madness.

This site gives a more politically correct version of the legend:

Quote:

when St Trifon was pruning his vines, the Holy Mother and the child passed by him. The Devil made him mock at her that she did not know who the father of her child was. The Madonna looked at him sadly and he stumbled and falling on the ground, cut off his nose. The Holy Mother had mercy and cured his nose.

More on the legend here.

So here we have multiply attested references to the (embarrassing) illegitimate birth of Jesus.

How is this "evidence" any less compelling that the stories in the Talmud?

Chris Weimer · 02-15-2006, 06:43 PM

I don't see anything about the illegitimate birth?

Toto · 02-15-2006, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

I don't see anything about the illegitimate birth?

If the mother doesn't know who the father is, what does that say? Hint - it's not her husband. If it were, she would know who the father is.

JoeWallack · 02-15-2006, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

My local Bulgarian wine dealer informs me that
...
So here we have multiply attested references to the (embarrassing) illegitimate birth of Jesus.

JW:
Who needs to resort to the Talmud here? Here is a fun game which you can play at Homily:

Do a Search through the following progressively later Christian writings and see how many references you can find to Joseph, Father of Jesus (helpful hint - the Infancy narratives in "Matthew" and "Luke" are second century Forgeries):

1) Paul

2) "Mark"

3) "Matthew"

4) "Luke"

5) "John"

6) Alberto Gonzalez' US Constitution

7) This Post

8) Mark's View Of The Disciples

Joseph

"But all the guys just idolized her"

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

mens_sana · 02-16-2006, 12:53 PM

I don't see that either the Talmud or the St Trifon story are evidence for a historical Jesus. However, they are evidence for a beliefthat Jesus was a historical person. Are the Acts of Paul and Thecla evidence for a historical Thecla? And the problem with the father's name (Joseph) is a problem only regarding the name, not whether there was a physical progenitor.

Ben C Smith · 02-16-2006, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Do a Search through the following progressively later Christian writings and see how many references you can find to Joseph, Father of Jesus (helpful hint - the Infancy narratives in "Matthew" and "Luke" are second century Forgeries):

1) Paul

2) "Mark"

3) "Matthew"

4) "Luke"

5) "John"

6) Alberto Gonzalez' US Constitution

7) This Post

8) Mark's View Of The Disciples

Somewhat arbitrarily excluding the infancy accounts, I get:

Paul- 0.
Mark- 0.
Matthew- 1 to his father, but by profession, not by name.
Luke- 1.
John- 2.
Alberto Gonzalez- ????
Your post- 1.
Your pet thread- How is your thread progressively later than the very post in which you referenced the thread?

Is that what you were after? BTW, why did you exclude other Christian writings between Mark and Alberto Gonzalez, such as the infancy gospels or Justin Martyr?

What conclusions do you draw from these numbers?

Ben.

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02-15-2006, 06:43 PM	#2
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	I don't see anything about the illegitimate birth?

02-16-2006, 12:53 PM	#5
mens_sana Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: 1/2 mile west of the Rio sin Grande Posts: 397	I don't see that either the Talmud or the St Trifon story are evidence for a historical Jesus. However, they are evidence for a beliefthat Jesus was a historical person. Are the Acts of Paul and Thecla evidence for a historical Thecla? And the problem with the father's name (Joseph) is a problem only regarding the name, not whether there was a physical progenitor.

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