Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 06-22-2012, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

Who's to say Paul is honest?

Why would he lie?

The fact is that we have the letters of (Pseudo-) Paul to Seneca.

Someone lied in the name of Paul in the 4th century.

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It's the last thing he would have done, especially in 1 Cor 15.

Famous last words.

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But who's to say that anyone is honest?

The historical evidence says we have some 4th century dishonesty in the name of Paul.

That's what the historical evidence says.

Horatio Parker · 06-22-2012, 09:47 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Of course, you have nothing but rhetoric.

What I had are questions for you that you answer by impugning my motives and reiterating your laundry list of deductions.

aa5874 · 06-22-2012, 10:37 PM

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Of course, you have nothing but rhetoric.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

What I had are questions for you that you answer by impugning my motives and reiterating your laundry list of deductions.

This is what I expected you to say. You have nothing to offer. You cannot even fill in ONE blank space for an early Paul.

Logical deductions are used all over the world by ordinary people, experts, scholars, historians, Scientists, doctors, teachers, engineers, mechanics, electricians, jurors, the Police, Judges, magistrates, school children............everybody.

Again, my position is that the Pauline writings are Anti-Marcionite Texts written sometime in the 2nd century or later.

When we Examine sources that mentioned Paul as a 1st century character ALL of them are questionable or fraudulent.

1. Acts of the Apostles mentioned Paul but it is a work of Notorious fiction.

2. An anonymous letter attributed to Clement of Rome mentions Paul but Clement of Rome was a fabricated character--Clement of Rome had NO real existence--Apologetic sources did NOT know when Clement was bishop for hundreds of years.

3. A writer called Ignatius mentioned Paul in a letter to the Ephesians but it is believed that the Pauline letter to Ephesians may be a forgery, that is, the Ephesian Churches never had a Pauline letter when Ignatius wrote his epistle

Ignatius' Epistle to the Ephesians 12

Quote:

...........You are initiated into the mysteries of the Gospel with Paul, the holy, the martyred, the deservedly most happy, at whose feet may I be found, when I shall attain to God; who in all his Epistles makes mention of you in Christ Jesus...

sotto voce · 06-23-2012, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

Who's to say Paul is honest?

Why would he lie?

The fact is that we have the letters of (Pseudo-) Paul to Seneca.

Someone lied in the name of Paul in the 4th century.

Quote:

It's the last thing he would have done, especially in 1 Cor 15.

Famous last words.

Unless you can think of something more credible.

Horatio Parker · 06-23-2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

This is what I expected you to say. You have nothing to offer. You cannot even fill in ONE blank space for an early Paul.

I didn't participate in this thread to offer my theories on Paul. I wanted to know about YOUR ideas. But you fold under the most basic questions and retreat into hostility and rigidity.

aa5874 · 06-23-2012, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horatio Parker

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

This is what I expected you to say. You have nothing to offer. You cannot even fill in ONE blank space for an early Paul.

I didn't participate in this thread to offer my theories on Paul. I wanted to know about YOUR ideas. But you fold under the most basic questions and retreat into hostility and rigidity.

This is precisely what I expected you to say in attempt to DIVERT attention from your inability to provide any evidence for an early Paul based on "Conventional Wisdom".

My postion is SOLID as a ROCK that the Pauline writings are Anti-Marcionites Texts written sometime around the mid 2nd century or later based on the Abundance of Dated evidence and sources that are Compatible with those ACTUAL dated sources.

This was my PREVIOUS response to your questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Now, let us go through some of the evidence quickly.

1. Letters to place Paul BEFORE the death of Nero have been deduced to be forgeries.

2. The Pauline letters have been deduced to have been manipulated by Multiple unknown authors.

3. Apologetic sources of the Church claimed Paul died under NERO but was stll ALIVE AFTER gLuke was written. gLuke is belived to have been written AFTER the death of Nero.

4. An Apologetic source claimed the Pauline letters were composed AFTER Revelation by John. Revelation is believed to have been written AFTER the death of Nero.

5. Acts of the Apostles believed to have been written AFTER the death of Nero did NOT claim Paul wrote letter to Churches.

6. There is NO time given in the Pauline letters for their composition.

7. The author of the short-ending gMark, the long ending gMark and gMatthew did NOT copy a single verse from the Pauline writings.

8. A Pauline writer claimed he RECEIVED information from the Resurrected Jesus but the very same information is found in gLuke. A resurrected being could NOT have given Paul any information about the past.

9. A Pauline writer claimed Jesus was RAISED from the dead on the THIRD day which is compatible with the Later Gospels.

10. Paul claimed he Spoke in tongues which is compatible with the Later Gospels and Acts of the Apostles.

11. Mid 2nd century Apologetic sources did NOT acknowledge Paul and that he evengelized the Roman Empire and wrote letters to churches.

12. No NT manuscript has been dated by Paleography or C 14 to any BEFORE the death of Nero.

13. Apologetic sources claimed Marcion around the mid 2nd century preached that the Son of God was in Galilee during the time of Tiberius WITHOUT birth and Flesh but in the Pauline letters Paul claimed he WITNESSED the resurrected Jesus.

14. The Pauline writer claimed if Jesus did NOT resurrect that there would be NO faith and NO remission of Sins which would be in DIRECT contradiction to Marcion.

Tigers! · 06-23-2012, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Bronzeage:

The existence of churches pre-Paul contradicts nothing about Christian beliefs. In fact if Paul was a persecutor of Christians before his conversion, as he claims, there would likely be churches of one sort or another in which they would congregate. Nor would the existence of some churches contradict the notion that Paul founded other churches and wrote letters to the churches he founded, or had visited. Seems like a pointless thread but consider the source.

Steve

Please, you are wasting your time.

People here understand the significance of the thread.

There is ZERO evidence in the Pauline letters that Paul founded any Church.

Who ever claimed that he did? The church has never claimed that he did?

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Paul PERSECUTED the Church of God. The Church of God ALREADY existed BEFORE Paul preached the Faith in the Pauline writings.

Accepted as true. this is a problem because .....?

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Show us EXACTLY where in the Pauline letters it is claimed he founded the Churches of Rome???

Nobody has ever claimed Paul founded that church. We don't know who did.

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Show us EXACTLY where in the Pauline letter it is claimed he founded the Churches of Corinth???

Nobody has ever claimed Paul founded that church. We don't know who did.

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Show us EXACTLY where Paul claimed he founded the Churches of Galatia???

Nobody has ever claimed Paul founded that church. We don't know who did.

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Show us EXACTLY where Paul claimed he founded the Churches of Thesalonica??

Nobody has ever claimed Paul founded that church. We don't know who did.

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Show us EXACTLY where Paul claimed he founded the Churches of the Philippians.

Nobody has ever claimed Paul founded that church. We don't know who did.

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Show us EXACTLY where Paul claimed he founded the Churches of the Ephesians

Nobody has ever claimed Paul founded that church. We don't know who did.

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Originally Posted by aa5874

Show us EXACTLY where Paul claimed he founded the Churches of the Colossians???

Nobody has ever claimed Paul founded that church. We don't know who did.

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Originally Posted by aa5874

You are dealing with Chinese Whispers and have NOTHING at all to support your unsubstantiated rumors that Paul founded Churches.

The Dated NT manuscripts do NOT support your imagination.

The Pauline letters P 46 are dated to the 2nd mid 2nd-3rd century.

AA you seem to be labouring a point that no-ones disagrees with.

BronzeAge had it right. You seem to have set a straw man trap for persons unknown and reasons unknown.

aa5874 · 06-23-2012, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigers!

Who ever claimed that he did? The church has never claimed that he did?

You don't seem to understand what is going on. People today propagate the notion that Paul started Churches and WROTE them letters

Please, examine post #52 of Juststeve.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

...The existence of churches pre-Paul contradicts nothing about Christian beliefs. In fact if Paul was a persecutor of Christians before his conversion, as he claims, there would likely be churches of one sort or another in which they would congregate. Nor would the existence of some churches contradict the notion that Paul founded other churches and wrote letters to the churches he founded, or had visited.......

Duvduv · 06-23-2012, 07:55 PM

AA, that reference does not mean that any NT texts were yet held in the esteem of the Old Testament texts as divinely ordained documents. Thus what sources says that they were?

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Originally Posted by aa5874

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Originally Posted by Duvduv

I was not asking leading questions. I have not been disrespectful to you or Toto or Adam or anyone else.

I was asking a very simple question as to what sources claimed that any gospels were sacred scriptures on the level of the Old Testament long BEFORE the NT was canonized. For heaven's sake, why chew me out and then meander off onto another point without even addressing what I asked you?...

Please, I have shown that Justin Martyr did claim the Jesus story in the MEMOIRS of the Apostles was read in the Churches.

How many times must I answer your very same questions????

First Apology

Now, look at Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho 109[/u]

Quote:

He would rise again on the third day after the crucifixion, it is written in the memoirs......

By the mid 2nd century, stories of Jesus was READ in the Churches.

The Pauline letters are DATED by Paleography to the mid 2nd-3rd century which is COMPATIBLE with the claims by Justin Martyr.

aa5874 · 06-23-2012, 08:57 PM

A poster under the name of Tigers asserts that Nobody claimed Paul founded Churches.

Well, Tigers have EXPOSED his lack of knowledge of apologetic writings.

This is "Against Celsus" attributed to Origen.

"Against Celsus" 1.63

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And I do not know how Celsus should have forgotten or not have thought of saying something about Paul, the founder, after Jesus, of the Churches that are in Christ....

This is Against Heresies attributed to Irenaeus.

Against Heresies 3.1.1

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.... Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church.

Against Heresies 3.3.4

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Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.

This is Church History attributed to Eusebius.

Church History 3.4.1.]

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That Paul preached to the Gentiles and laid the foundations of the churches “from Jerusalem round about even unto Illyricum,” is evident both from his own words, and from the account which Luke has given in the Acts.

It is clear that Apologetic sources of the Church claimed Paul founded the Churches in Christ from Jerusalem to Illyricum, including the Churches of Ephesus and Rome.

However, what I find disturbing is that Tigers seems completely unfamiliar with the claims made even by people today that Paul founded Churches.

In the Pauline letters themselves there is NO claim that Paul started any Churches and NO claim that the Jesus story was unknown before the Pauline letters were written.

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